Trigger, Safety, and Springs for AR-15

[JGarcia]

I've searched the threads pertaining to the inner workings of an AR-15 lower receiver. Naturally I have a couple of questions.

I bought a new DPMS stripped lower receiver, and I want to build a good lower for the new POF-415 upper I am buying. The purpose of the finished carbine will be to practice shooting, to take to Thunder Ranch on occasion, to spend money on, and to take to the range with my son. I am settled on the upper, all of my questions will be about which parts to buy for the lower and why. So, I thank you for your time spent in reading and answering my questions.

I am considering installing a two stage national match trigger from a company called Geissele Automatics. The trigger was reviewed (complete with photos) at ar15.com. Here are a couple of quotes from what I read there:

"...lock time with this trigger has been calculated at 8ms. This is an improvement of almost 50%. The shorter lock time can actually be felt by the shooter.

The hammer has also been designed to incorporate its “center of percussion” as near as possible to the firing pin longitudinal axis. When impact occurs on or near a rotating object’s center of percussion the reaction at the pivot point is minimized."

"Sear engagement and 2nd stage weight are two separate adjustments on this trigger. No trade offs will have to be made between a light 2nd stage pull weight and a sharp 2nd stage break. With a separate sear adjustment, machining tolerances of the receiver are minimized and each trigger can be tuned for a perfect, crisp let off.

There is an overtravel adjustment screw that can be adjusted for shooters who want very little trigger movement after the 2nd stage break. Conversely, the geometry of the trigger has been designed to allow for maximum overtravel for shooters who want to ensure the projectile has exited the barrel before the trigger comes to a hard stop. Shooters that compete in National Infantry Trophy Team matches (600yds of rapid fire) might find the overtravel adjustment of most benefit since minimal overtravel will decrease trigger reset time and allow the trigger cycle time to be minimized."

Do any of you think it would be advantageous to use a two stage national match trigger or the geissele trigger rather than a stock trigger?

[Peregrino]

Get MILSPEC components and quit worrying about bells and whistles. The rifle you are building is not a competition weapon - don't use competition parts. Your goal should be reliability and simplicity (sometimes the same, always related). Anything that requires adjustment will need it (or break) when you least want to mess with it. Spend the money you save on a good set of electronic hearing protection or a shot timer, or range safety equipment for your son. BTW - I'm not condemning the Geisselle trigger, I have it from a friend at the AMU that it is "the heat" - for match weapons that will be fired in competition. When the time comes that I have to replace my match triggers, I will probably look at it myself. I just don't think it's appropriate for your intended use. FWIW - Peregrino

[HOLLiS]

Peregrino, Those would be my thoughts. I never completely understood tech weenies. They are in every group. They have memorized the engineering stats, historical stats on everything in that field, sport etc. I guess when I lived in Arkansas I picked up on a habit there. The simplification of everything. Such as; why use two words when one would work.

Another example; You want a hunting dog. Instead of going through 10 pages of breeding history, show awards, 6 months of research etc.... one question/only one fact is important. "Does that dog hunt?" A simple yes or no works, no more needs to be said.

Or maybe like those in North Arkansas, I am not ready for all the technology yet.

[JGarcia]

Your comments are appreciated. I didn't think of the more complicated=more problems point of view.

I'll take a gander at standard triggers over at the AR site.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by NG_M4_Shooter

Your comments are appreciated. I didn't think of the more complicated=more problems point of view.

I'll take a gander at standard triggers over at the AR site.

Not a fan of the overly complex competition triggers for service use either.

I find that the Rock River Match trigger works well, and is relatively inexpensive.

TR

[gunnerjohn]

One option to think about when looking at a standard trigger is not to go out and buy the lowest price "mil-spec" trigger group. If you look to dpms or armalite you can get quality stock trigger components. I have built dozens of AR's for all different realms of usage. When building a stock or LE configuration gun I will use trigger components from the above companies. This is one of the CYA aspects of a defense gun. If you put one of the high tech "special" trigger groups in your defense gun and have the need to use it in a situation that might end up in court, the trigger group may go against you. I know that Thunder Ranch promotes many types of firearm modification, but there is nothing wrong with stock. Look into quality springs for your lower. Wolff and Wilson both have great spring packages in stock configuration. These spring sets are made of quality spring stock that will not go "soft" on you when you least expect it.
Hopefully this gives you the help you want.

Gunnerjohn

[Gene Econ]

Guys:

Agree with Mr. Peregrino and I am a competitive shooter more than a tactical shooter by far.

I have a Timney and Rock River two stage in two of my AR lowers. A Medisha two stage for a Pre-64 Winchster Match Rifle and a Anschutz two stage in my Tubb 2000.

If the desire is to use said AR for pleasure or competitive shooting -- by all means buy a two stage if you desire. Note that you will serve yourself well by checking its adjustments about every 1000 rounds or some set screw will loosen up and you will have problems.

The two stage jobs always have three or four set screws. When one of them loosens up or is adjusted, you will need to reset all the others. About ten or twenty minutes time and then test fire the rifle before depending on it.

The only one I have not had problems with is the Anschutz for my Tubb. Must have ten thousand rounds out of the reciever without one iota of a problem. Unfortunately, that particular trigger will probably cost more than most AR's.

If your life depends on it -- get a quality single stage and have a quality gunsmith fit it to your rifle and smooth it out some. I hesitate to trust MILSPEC trigger parts because most aren't, yet do replicate the horrible trigger pulls found on the current M-16A2 or M-4.

There is nothing wrong with a two stage trigger though. I have shot many thousands of rounds from service and match grade M-1s and M-14s and they were issued with two stage triggers.

I got fixed in my ways due to the M-14 two stage trigger so I tend to keep with two stage triggers. If one is fixed in his ways with a single stage trigger --he will probably have problems with a two stage trigger. However, if one learned with a two stage -- it is easier for him to deal with a single stage. You remember it is single stage when you try to take up a non-existant first stage and normally have a good pull as a result.

Am I happy with the two stage jobs on my AR's? Sure am. Do I also check their tuning regularly? Sure do. Would I trust them if my life depended on it? Yes but only because I continually ensure they are set properly and that they function.

If someone made a military trigger in two stage like the M-14, but for an AR -- I would buy it in an instant.

Gene

[Peregrino]

Gene - I was raised on two-stage triggers too. The Rock River is really nice for the price and its design. TR pointed me in that direction "a while ago" and I've been very happy with the two I'm using now. It's half the price of the Krieger-Milazo I use in my service rifle and every bit as crisp. Though I need to put new springs on the one in my SPR, it's down to 3 1/2 lbs but otherwise excellent. Have you used Tubb's springs? The ad copy looks impressive and I'm fishing for info before I go talk to my gunsmith (so he can laugh at me while telling me the same things I just told NG_M4_Shooter). Peregrino

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

Though I need to put new springs on the one in my SPR, it's down to 3 1/2 lbs but otherwise excellent. Have you used Tubb's springs? The ad copy looks impressive and I'm fishing for info before I go talk to my gunsmith (so he can laugh at me while telling me the same things I just told NG_M4_Shooter). Peregrino

Mr. Peregrino:

I don't have any experience with Tubbs spring kits for ARs or speed locks for bolt rifles so can't comment.

Would think under five pounds on a rifle intended for combat is pushing things though. Not that I would deliberately make it heavier. Just would be a bit more aware of things? I normally stick with five pounds on the gas guns. However I am particular about having two very distinct stages and a very crisp second state let off.

I really don't hold MILSPEC triggers or springs in high regard. We had some problems with them last week. I think they were poorly made once again. Monstrous trigger pulls on M-16's. A few must have been fifteen pounds. First time I have seen dirt in the trigger housing cause light primer strikes due to too soft a hammer fall. Well, MILSPEC needs to be cleaned and maintained as well as anything else but fifteen or sixteen pound pulls are unacceptable IMHO.

Gene

[TonyY]

I have used the RRA and LMT 2 stage for awhile on both of my ARs. Last year I finished a 3rd AR and used a Chip McChormick drop in. It's a great trigger for the price. In fact I like it over the others. Non of the above are adjustible and to me thats also a plus. A little dirt and water kind of screws up the works big time. And what a pain in the butt to try to clean itty bitty springs and such out in the field or for that matter even at the range.

My next AR project is an AR10 and I've picked up a KACs 2 stage for that. I just hope it works as good or better than the others.

[EchoSixMike]

The Rock River triggers are pretty much the default standard trigger for competitive use. You can spend more money, but it doesn't really buy you anything. I use a Kreiger-Milazo, but that's more due to the fact that it's the only thing that was available back when I had the rifle made(1996).

I would recommend getting the RR trigger and having John Holliger at White Oak Precision tune it properly. There ATB one set screw in the RR trigger I just looked at, it should be loctited in a gun that may see serious use, ask John to do this.

The USGI single stage fire control components are wonderfully simple and reliable, things which have much to recommend them. Two stage triggers are more complex and thus prone to failure. I've had primers pop and bolt lugs break and fall into the lower, tying up the gun. Fishing out the offending part is not something that would have been viable in combat, because you have to diagnose the problem before you can start to correct it. Having the trigger unable to pull back wasn't something I associated with a broken part in the trigger assembly, at first, I thought I had a problem with the selector, it felt as if I was trying to pull through the safety.

I have not USED the Knight 2 stage trigger, but I have looked at it. It ATB more complex than the RR, or even my old Kreiger-Milazo. I can't say that this is a good thing. S/F.....Ken M