On the Run

[The Reaper]

Tom:

I think we are pretty much on the same page.


TRU:

I generally agree with your comments, but follow this:

Rem 700 w/optics, mount, sling - 11 lbs.
AK w/sling and empty mag - 9 lbs.
Glock 19 w/ empty mag and holster - 2 lbs.
Ruger Mk 2 w/ empty mag and holster - 2 lbs.

24 lbs., plus ammo:

7.62x51 - 19 rds./lb.
7.62x39 - 28 rds./lb. (plus .5 - 1.0 lb./mag)
9x19 - 38 rds/lb. (plus mag wt.=.5 lb./loaded 15 rd mag.)
.22LR - 133 rds./lb. (plus mag wt.)

Sample load:

100 rds. 7.62x51 - 5 lbs.
150 rds. 7.62x39 in 5 30 rd. mags - 10 lbs.
50 rds. 9x19 in 3 15 rd. mags - 2 lbs.
200 rds. .22LR and 2 spare 10 rd. mags - 2 lbs.

Total, weapon, accessories and ammo:

Rem 700 w/ 100 rounds - 15 lbs.
AK47 w/ 5 loaded 30 rd. mags - 19 lbs.
Glock 19 w/ 3 loaded 15 rd. mags - 3.5 lbs.
Ruger Mk 2. w/ 3 loaded 10 rd. mags and 170 spare rounds - 4 lbs.

Total weapons and ammo load weight: 41.5 lbs. + LCE

Either you are humping an 86.5 pound load (per the original scenario), or you are going to be dumping a lot of gear pretty quickly (and moving slowly to boot).

Not trying to bust your bubble, just trying to make everyone understand the tyranny of time, distance, and weight.

What do you (collectively) really have to have for the scenario?

Hint: I don't think two long guns, with lots of ammo, is feasible.

And I wouldn't necessarily sell the AR short for the AK, especially in the .300 Blackout.


Alternative weapons loadout:

16" lightweight, mid-length M-4 in .300 Blackout, with freefloat rail, 1.5-5x Leupold M/RT or TA-31 ACOG, Surefire M-600, BUIS, Otis pistol grip cleaning kit, sling, five GI mags, and Surefire 7.62 shorty suppressor. - 12 pounds.
Ruger .22/45 LITE in .22LR with night sights, 3x 10 rd. mags and suppressor 2 lbs.
[Optional Glock 19 w/ night sights, holster, empty mag - 2.0 lbs.]

150 rounds .300 AAC Blackout, supersonic 125 gr. Nosler BT - 6 lbs.
60 rounds .300 AAC Blackout, subsonic 220 gr. Sierra BTHP-MK - 2 lbs.
130 rounds .22LR HV HPs 1 lb.
70 rounds Lapua Match (subsonic) .5 lb.
[Optional pistol ammo 50 rds. 9x19 JHP +P in 3x 15 rd. mags - 1.5 lbs.]

Total, carbine, accessories, and ammo: 20 lbs.
Total, .22LR pistol, accessories, and ammo: 3 lbs.
[Total optional Glock pistol, accessories, and ammo: 3.5 lbs.]

Total weapons and ammo load weight (w/o Glock: 23 lbs. + LCE)

Total weapons and ammo load weight (w/ Glock: 26.5 lbs. + LCE)

Gross load, as per scenario: 68-71.5 lbs. Still heavy, but much easier than 86+ pounds, especially moving fast in bad terrain.

TR

[TRU]

I certainly agree with the weight issue. Humping weight, especially when being chased or trying to move quietly is a feat in itself, let alone 80+ lbs.

On a side note, I just built a .300 Blackout with AAC Suppressor. Seeing as how I've been down here in the course, I haven't had time to shoot it or play around with it. I think .300 platform would be a good option, but you would have to bring a lot of ammo. Sourcing it now is rough, and handloading isn't an option in this scenario.

[therunningwolf]

I'd like to add my take on this scenario. I don't have any experience in combat or really any training to brag about, I practice with my personal AR and Sidearm at least an hour a day and get out with my buddies to train as much as we can, but we are by no means experts. I ruck twice a week and run twice a week on top of lifting and a lot of calisthenics. Just to give anyone reading a little background.

Given five minutes to grab what ever I can the first minute I would spend sending a group text (if able) or a call or two to my buddies to tell them to get to a predetermined rally point. If phones are down, we all know where to meet if things get squirrelly. I honestly consider this to be the most important "weapon" I have to get, my teammates. Next I would grab my AR, it is a BCM mid length with a Aimpoint and magnifier, SureFire Fury, and soon to have a can on it, it is painted to match my AO. Setting next to it is a Molle belt and a BFG RackMinus that holds 7 rifle mags total, with three more in my pack. I also have a RMJ Shrike mounted on the belt, The Shrike would be mostly for breaking into (or out of) anything we come across along the way. I always have a Glock 19 with spare mag on me as well as a pocket knife and other goodies. After reading this thread, I believe I will also invest in a .22 conversion kit.

I plan to travel with a small group thus we all carry 5.56 and 9x19. Eleven magazines may seem like a lot, but I figure after we get to where we are going, we will be regrouping with larger groups to take back the land we lost, also we can scavenge for magazine's and ammo and other equipment along the way, but I want to make sure I have at least eleven good magazine's on me, and I figure they aren't doing me any good empty.

To compensate for this added weight I won't be carrying a dedicated shelter, one of us will be awake at all times maybe two so there is no point in all of us carrying a shelter/ sleep system, if I need it I have a poncho and woobie on me and the knowledge and skills to build a shelter.

I choose the AR for it's weight, commonality, and accuracy on top of it being the one weapon I know the best. I didn't go with a dedicated scope but instead with an Aimpoint, where I live there isn't many places where you can see 200-300 yards away so long range isn't much of a worry. I did choose to add in a magnifier though seeing as I plan to head West. As for the hawk, we each have a specific item or set of items we are responsible for carrying, I'm responsible for carrying stuff to break crap or break into things, the axe just serves double duty as a lightweight breaching tool/ weapon. Not the best, but lighter then a sledgehammer or crowbar and better then a large fixed blade in my opinion.

If we have to leave our home we plan to do it as quickly and quietly as possible so we will be avoiding civilization as much as possible and depending heavily on maps and our ability to land-nav. I have a rain cover for my ruck that makes it look fairly civilianish so I can throw everything in the empty spaces of my pack when I don't need to look like Rambo. We plan to avoid conflict as much as we can on our way out, but boy will we raise some hell on the way back.

Any advice or critique you can add would be appreciated.

[The Reaper]

TRU, you could load all of the .300 you want to right now, before the scenario starts. Great shooting round an extremely flexible, and I was not a fan of the proposed 5.56 replacements.


runningwolf, your logic appears to be generally sound.

I would probably take less ammo and am not sure I would use a $500 tomahawk as a breaching tool, but you have a plan and as a young man, you may be able to carry the load.

I like the team approach and cross-loading as well.

Good answer. I'll be watching you....

TR

[(1VB)compforce]

Grab my go-bag (lightweight frameless ruck), ~20 lbs at normal weight + 10 lbs for food (ramen noodles and foil tuna packets) and water

Panther Arms DPMS AR-10 broken into upper and lower and stuffed in the bag with one 20 round mag for any ranged hunting/defense (~11.5 lb)

Beretta CX4 Storm 9mm - I keep it velcro strapped to side of ruck for quick deployment. It's accurate out to 100M and blends with the ruck well enough to avoid casual notice (~6 lb) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_Cx4_Storm for those not familiar with it.

Beretta 92FS - I'd only choose this over the 1911 because the mags are interchangeable with the storm.

4 X mags - If I need more than this, I've failed miserably

Leatherman Skeletool and Benchmade fixed blade are on the pack, my 3" folder is always in my pocket so knives are covered.

Total weight - 50-55 lb

Everything is ready to go except the AR, it is easily accessible on the way to the exit so it only takes the time to punch the pins and stuff into the bag. I can leave this behind if time doesn't permit, the storm is enough for most E&E applications.

I'm on the fringes of the North Atlanta Metro so my E&E would be to the N/NE away from the city and into the wooded lake lanier area.

[The_Mentalist]

Originally Posted by (1VB)compforce

Grab my go-bag (lightweight frameless ruck), ~20 lbs at normal weight + 10 lbs for food (ramen noodles and foil tuna packets) and water

Panther Arms DPMS AR-10 broken into upper and lower and stuffed in the bag with one 20 round mag for any ranged hunting/defense (~11.5 lb)

Beretta CX4 Storm 9mm - I keep it velcro strapped to side of ruck for quick deployment. It's accurate out to 100M and blends with the ruck well enough to avoid casual notice (~6 lb) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_Cx4_Storm for those not familiar with it.

Beretta 92FS - I'd only choose this over the 1911 because the mags are interchangeable with the storm.

4 X mags - If I need more than this, I've failed miserably

Leatherman Skeletool and Benchmade fixed blade are on the pack, my 3" folder is always in my pocket so knives are covered.

Total weight - 50-55 lb

Everything is ready to go except the AR, it is easily accessible on the way to the exit so it only takes the time to punch the pins and stuff into the bag. I can leave this behind if time doesn't permit, the storm is enough for most E&E applications.

I'm on the fringes of the North Atlanta Metro so my E&E would be to the N/NE away from the city and into the wooded lake lanier area.

Why not go with the PX4? Much lighter and easier to handle than the 92 and the mags are still interchangeable with the CX4.

[(1VB)compforce]

Originally Posted by The_Mentalist

Why not go with the PX4? Much lighter and easier to handle than the 92 and the mags are still interchangeable with the CX4.

Because I own a 92 right now. My assumption was that we needed to work with what we have on hand (with the possible exception of ammo).

[Old Dog New Trick]

Just an as noted:

It would be most important to have a trusty set of good comfortable broken-in boots and socks sitting by the door to change into on your way out...five minutes is not a lot of time. All the guns, ammo, and survival equipment in the bag won't help if you can't make it the first ten miles; you have 90 to go...

[spherojon]

Originally Posted by Old Dog New Trick

Just an as noted:

It would be most important to have a trusty set of good comfortable broken-in boots and socks sitting by the door to change into on your way out...five minutes is not a lot of time. All the guns, ammo, and survival equipment in the bag won't help if you can't make it the first ten miles; you have 90 to go...

I have a pair next to my safe, and a pair in my vehicle. I went with Danner boots.

[Knight]

Rem. 12 gauge 870 pump with 100 rounds; 20 slugs and the rest 00 buckshot.
H&K .45 USP with 5 loaded clips=60 rounds.
Feedback is very welcome on the weapon choices. Great scenario-thanks!

[Fox583]

It depends, is this force using 5.56 or 7.62 either way, I think im going with my Chi-com Para model SKS with 5 loaded mags. The SKS will take down big game. I will also take my duty pistol S&W M&P 9mm. I also am bringing the family. My wife will be carrying the baby in that weird baby thing we bought that she has never used. She is also carrying the shotgun and pistol. We are headed approximately 1/2 miles through the woods behind us, there is an old rail road that runs north and south, we are headed North. I also have a hi-powered air rifle for small game and quite kills. I ditch the water in my pack and exchange it for a filtration system with an extra filter. Oh and I live in Southeast Texas so about a gallon of OFF haha.

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Another scenario to play with.

You are at home and have five minutes notice that you are about to be raided by a vastly superior force. You need to execute your personal E&E plan.

The streets and roads are already covered for vehicle movement, so you will have to move out on foot to a safe area 100 miles away.

You already have a bug out bag prepared with 45 pounds of food, water, shelter, med gear, survival tools, etc. We can discuss the contents of the bag if you like.

You need to hit the woods on foot and may need to harvest game, defend yourself against predators, and engage small hostile teams. Try not to beat this scenario to death.

Your safe is open and you may grab as many weapons, mags, and as much ammo as you wish to carry.

What do you take and why?

TR

Not sure I understand the specifics of the scenario.

Is it you (and maybe a few other individuals in the community) being raided?
Or, is the entire community (Red Dawn) being raided?

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by (1VB)compforce

Grab my go-bag (lightweight frameless ruck), ~20 lbs at normal weight + 10 lbs for food (ramen noodles and foil tuna packets) and water

Panther Arms DPMS AR-10 broken into upper and lower and stuffed in the bag with one 20 round mag for any ranged hunting/defense (~11.5 lb)

Beretta CX4 Storm 9mm - I keep it velcro strapped to side of ruck for quick deployment. It's accurate out to 100M and blends with the ruck well enough to avoid casual notice (~6 lb) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_Cx4_Storm for those not familiar with it.

Beretta 92FS - I'd only choose this over the 1911 because the mags are interchangeable with the storm.

4 X mags - If I need more than this, I've failed miserably

Leatherman Skeletool and Benchmade fixed blade are on the pack, my 3" folder is always in my pocket so knives are covered.

Total weight - 50-55 lb

Everything is ready to go except the AR, it is easily accessible on the way to the exit so it only takes the time to punch the pins and stuff into the bag. I can leave this behind if time doesn't permit, the storm is enough for most E&E applications.

I'm on the fringes of the North Atlanta Metro so my E&E would be to the N/NE away from the city and into the wooded lake lanier area.

AR-10 w/ 20 rounds and one mag - 11 pounds

CX4 Not a real fan of 6 pound pistols, but that is your call. w/four 15 rd. mags - 9 lbs.

Beretta M-92FS - 2 lbs.

Total weapons weight, with ammo - 22 lbs.

I would have worked a .22LR in there somewhere, but if loud is your thing, have at it.

I doubt that you will have the opportunity to take advantage of the range of the 7.62x51, but the penetration might work well for you.

My personal opinion is that if you are going to hump a 10 pound rifle, you might as well have enough ammo to make things interesting, but that is your call. I don't think the CX4 will do much that the M-92 will not, but it might work for you. Eliminating the CX4 and adding several mags for the rifle and a .22LR would be my suggestion. The Beretta is also bulkier and heavier than it needs to be.

Good idea hiding the guns as much as possible.


ODNT, concur wholeheartedly with the good serviceable boots, socks, and plenty of powder and maybe some moleskin.

Originally Posted by Knight

Rem. 12 gauge 870 pump with 100 rounds; 20 slugs and the rest 00 buckshot.
H&K .45 USP with 5 loaded clips=60 rounds.
Feedback is very welcome on the weapon choices. Great scenario-thanks!

Knight, not sure of your location, but your weapons selection will likely limit you to 50 meters effective fire or less.

870 w/ 100 rounds - 18 pounds.

HK USP and 60 rounds - 5 pounds.

Total, 23 pounds, very deadly up close, but primarily an urban or thick woods loadout.

.45 ACP is heavy, and both of your selections are fairly loud, so expect attention.

Originally Posted by Fox583

It depends, is this force using 5.56 or 7.62 either way, I think im going with my Chi-com Para model SKS with 5 loaded mags. The SKS will take down big game. I will also take my duty pistol S&W M&P 9mm. I also am bringing the family. My wife will be carrying the baby in that weird baby thing we bought that she has never used. She is also carrying the shotgun and pistol. We are headed approximately 1/2 miles through the woods behind us, there is an old rail road that runs north and south, we are headed North. I also have a hi-powered air rifle for small game and quite kills. I ditch the water in my pack and exchange it for a filtration system with an extra filter. Oh and I live in Southeast Texas so about a gallon of OFF haha.

If you are going with 7.62x39, why does the pursuers' ammo choice of 5.56 or 7.62 matter? No recovery there.

Is this an SKS with a 30 round mag, or ten rounders? I wouldn't expect the 7.62x39 to take real big game, but it would be okay up through deer, if you had the right ammo.

The air rifle will weigh as much as a regular rifle, but the ammo is light, and quiet.

Good choice using a duty handgun.

I am not sure I would want to load up the wife with the baby, a shotgun, and a pistol, but you know her capabilties and limitations.

Railroad tracks can allow for some long engagement ranges. I would prefer to add an optic to the rifle.

SKS w/ 5 mags and 150 rds. - 18 pounds

M&P w/3 mags - 4 pounds

Air rifle w/ pellets - 8 pounds

Unknown shotgun w/ 25 rounds - 11 pounds

Unknown pistol (assumed to be same as your duty weapon for ammo interchangeability) - 4 pounds

Unknown baby weight, 15 lbs.

Your load of weapons and ammo - 30 lbs.

Wife's load of weapons and ammo - 15 lbs., plus baby, plus food, baby food, diapers, water, shelter, etc.

I think you are gun and ammo heavy, especially with the baby.

You can pack the 45 pound ruck and 30 pounds of guns, but I do not think she is going to be able to take the guns, ammo, baby, baby needs, and a 45 pound ruck for a total of 75+ pounds.

Best of luck!

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen

Not sure I understand the specifics of the scenario.

Is it you (and maybe a few other individuals in the community) being raided?
Or, is the entire community (Red Dawn) being raided?

GC:

Don't read too much into the scenario.

You are on the run in five minutes with what you can carry, the authorities have blocked the area roads, and will be searching for you very soon. Your goal is to evade or defeat your pursuers for 100 miles to a safe area of your choosing.

What do you grab for weapons to go with your BoB as you jock up and move out?

TR

[(1VB)compforce]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

AR-10 w/ 20 rounds and one mag - 11 pounds

CX4 Not a real fan of 6 pound pistols, but that is your call. w/four 15 rd. mags - 9 lbs.

Beretta M-92FS - 2 lbs.

Total weapons weight, with ammo - 22 lbs.

I would have worked a .22LR in there somewhere, but if loud is your thing, have at it.

I doubt that you will have the opportunity to take advantage of the range of the 7.62x51, but the penetration might work well for you.

My personal opinion is that if you are going to hump a 10 pound rifle, you might as well have enough ammo to make things interesting, but that is your call. I don't think the CX4 will do much that the M-92 will not, but it might work for you. Eliminating the CX4 and adding several mags for the rifle and a .22LR would be my suggestion. The Beretta is also bulkier and heavier than it needs to be.

Good idea hiding the guns as much as possible.

TR,
Your input received and being given a great deal of consideration. I was approaching this from the standpoint of "you are required to E&E within 5 minutes of reading this post". I don't own a .22LR so that wasn't in the mix. Not really much that I'm allowed to shoot here in ATL so everything I own is for personal defense or range.

My thought process is to be prepared at any range with access times driven by the range. Knife for CQC, Pistol for short with immediate access, storm for medium range with 10 second access, rifle for longer ranges with 1 minute access. The Storm is a tack driver at 100M where I would be lucky to hit a man sized target with a pistol. That's the reason I like it for an engagement beyond normal pistol range. Reviews peg the group at 2"@100Y from a cradle. I've snapshot 4" over-the-shoulder hostage targets consistently at 25M with it. At 25M, I'm lucky to be on black paper with any of my handguns (I have a bad case of dupetryn's syndrome in one of my hands so no proper grip). If I drop the Storm, I'd take one of my Kimbers rather than the 92, probably the 4" Pro Carry II in .45 ACP

As far as the E&E itself, my mindset is the gray man. I'm in an urban setting in a major metro for the first 15 miles so I want to make myself blend in as much as possible and walk out. No camoflage, just a regular guy out for a walk if possible.

Am I thinking about this the wrong way? If I have to fight my way out, I'd think I was pretty much screwed in this area, better to get in my big weapon (the car) and try to haul ass through the coverage before they could react, ditch the car down the road, switch back to gray man before they knew who I was/what I look like and try to make the woodline before they got a fix on me.

Your thoughts for those of us that need to E&E out of a major urban area?

Not arguing, I'm interested in your take based on the situation.

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

GC:

Don't read too much into the scenario.

You are on the run in five minutes with what you can carry, the authorities have blocked the area roads, and will be searching for you very soon. Your goal is to evade or defeat your pursuers for 100 miles to a safe area of your choosing.

What do you grab for weapons to go with your BoB as you jock up and move out?

TR

Given those specifics, assuming I'm moving alone, and assuming a time of year which allows for surviving a dip in the lake...
(short distance across the channel)

Biggest enemy around here is the terrain and environment.
Also an asset due to the difficulty of pursuit.

-North American 22 magnum mini-revolver w/50 rounds (45 left in box, 5 in cylinder)
-Colt Delta 10mm w/3 mags (25 rounds - preferably 230 grain hard cast)
-ar15 (16 inch barrel, collapsible stock, sling) with 2 mags, 30 rounds each
-12 gauge Mossberg 500, 18.5 inch barrel, 8 rounds 00 buck (all loaded in gun)
-bug out bag
-4 waterski vests

Reasoning/planning:
-Ski vests are for flotation, two for me, one for bag, one more just in case (they're pretty light), throw 3 of them once I'm confident no more time in the lake is likely (remaining one has other potential uses).
-12 gauge is for all the reasons I can't think of, gets thrown once I hit water (~2.5 miles).
-ar15 gets slung, should make water crossing with extra vests, primary purpose is to discourage/delay pursuit, extra mag is mainly for reliability/redundancy, it (weapon & ammo) will get thrown if it becomes a liability (probably thrown within 25 miles).
-10mm packs a punch, doesn't way too much.
-22 mag is trivial in weight, pretty accurate to 50 ft, can take small game (and still have a spare gun for all the reasons I can't think of).

Not much "fighting" ammo or weapons for over the long haul.
Would prefer to avoid fights if at all possible.
"Fighting" weapons are primarily for discouraging/delaying pursuit.

Would be outnumbered, outgunned, and I am not a gunfighter.
Better to take my chances with quicker egress into forbidding terrain.

Would want to keep load as light as is feasible.
Once clear of the lake, the big enemy is dehydration.

Sweat must be budgeted.