On the Run

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by (1VB)compforce

TR,
Your input received and being given a great deal of consideration. I was approaching this from the standpoint of "you are required to E&E within 5 minutes of reading this post". I don't own a .22LR so that wasn't in the mix. Not really much that I'm allowed to shoot here in ATL so everything I own is for personal defense or range.

My thought process is to be prepared at any range with access times driven by the range. Knife for CQC, Pistol for short with immediate access, storm for medium range with 10 second access, rifle for longer ranges with 1 minute access. The Storm is a tack driver at 100M where I would be lucky to hit a man sized target with a pistol. That's the reason I like it for an engagement beyond normal pistol range. Reviews peg the group at 2"@100Y from a cradle. I've snapshot 4" over-the-shoulder hostage targets consistently at 25M with it. At 25M, I'm lucky to be on black paper with any of my handguns (I have a bad case of dupetryn's syndrome in one of my hands so no proper grip). If I drop the Storm, I'd take one of my Kimbers rather than the 92, probably the 4" Pro Carry II in .45 ACP

As far as the E&E itself, my mindset is the gray man. I'm in an urban setting in a major metro for the first 15 miles so I want to make myself blend in as much as possible and walk out. No camoflage, just a regular guy out for a walk if possible.

Am I thinking about this the wrong way? If I have to fight my way out, I'd think I was pretty much screwed in this area, better to get in my big weapon (the car) and try to haul ass through the coverage before they could react, ditch the car down the road, switch back to gray man before they knew who I was/what I look like and try to make the woodline before they got a fix on me.

Your thoughts for those of us that need to E&E out of a major urban area?

Not arguing, I'm interested in your take based on the situation.

Consider this.

It isn't just the ability to hit the target at 100 yards, but what happens to the target, if it is hit.

9x19mm loads are optimized for a pistol barrel of 5" or less, and I doubt if the last six to eight inches of a 16" carbine is giving you much more burn. Anything over 10" - 12" is probably a waste, and is just there for BATF legal reasons.

Performance bullets are made to function for maximum terminal effect between a certain velocity range. Normally, that would be from muzzle to 50 meters or so from the pistol, possibly as little as 25 for slower rounds like the .45ACP.

Launching a JHP bullet at 1400 fps, rather than 1100 means that the bullet will tend to overexpand and underpenetrate. You will get typical handgun performance somewhere around the 950-1150 fps range, and as it slows below that, you will get more penetration and less expansion. If you chrony'ed the MV of the carbine with your carry ammo, I am sure that you could extrapolate the range of desired performance. May not even be a concern, as long as you are aware of it.

The CX4 is a nice little plinker. I would not mistake it for an assault rifle or carbine though. For me, I would prefer the M-4 or more ammo for the AR-10.

Not to spend your money, but you might want to consider a pellet pistol for backyard practice and saving up for a carbine in 5.56 or 7.62x39. You used to be able

I am sure that you can get by with your weapons loadout, but I would not hump a ten pound semi-auto rifle with just 20 rounds unless that was all of the ammo I had.

You might also want to look at alternative sighting options that would give you a CQB capability for your AR-10, like an offset Doctor Optic or a similar red dot sight.

If you are in an urban area, you need to consider how to get out in advance of when the SHTF. I would look to establish some criteria that would cause me to initiate my plan fairly early on the timeline.

Fifteen miles through some of the Atlanta neighborhoods I have seen could be rough. Outside of the scenario, you need to drive, get a motorcycle, or a bike.

Gray man is the way to be, in your situation. Invisible man would be better yet. Hide the guns unless you decide that the situation is better packing openly and appearing to be a harder target than going concealed.

I do not want to get too deeply into over analyzing the scenario. I wanted to see what the bugout weapons might realistically look like without opening the thread to people who would say they were going to carry everything including the kitchen sink.

If you need to use your car, you might want to have a PACE plan picked out where P might be your car, A could be a motorcycle, C would be your bicycle and trailer, and E is your feet.

Honestly, I wouldn't want to live within 50 miles of a major metro area or a natural line of drift for a plethora of reasons. Honestly, my solution would be to start working on a plan to get out. Otherwise, you need a very solid plan, with lots of contingencies for the most likely and most dangerous courses of action.

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen

Given those specifics, assuming I'm moving alone, and assuming a time of year which allows for surviving a dip in the lake...
(short distance across the channel)

Biggest enemy around here is the terrain and environment.
Also an asset due to the difficulty of pursuit.

-North American 22 magnum mini-revolver w/50 rounds (45 left in box, 5 in cylinder)
-Colt Delta 10mm w/3 mags (25 rounds - preferably 230 grain hard cast)
-ar15 (16 inch barrel, collapsible stock, sling) with 2 mags, 30 rounds each
-12 gauge Mossberg 500, 18.5 inch barrel, 8 rounds 00 buck (all loaded in gun)
-bug out bag
-4 waterski vests

Reasoning/planning:
-Ski vests are for flotation, two for me, one for bag, one more just in case (they're pretty light), throw 3 of them once I'm confident no more time in the lake is likely (remaining one has other potential uses).
-12 gauge is for all the reasons I can't think of, gets thrown once I hit water (~2.5 miles).
-ar15 gets slung, should make water crossing with extra vests, primary purpose is to discourage/delay pursuit, extra mag is mainly for reliability/redundancy, it (weapon & ammo) will get thrown if it becomes a liability (probably thrown within 25 miles).
-10mm packs a punch, doesn't way too much.
-22 mag is trivial in weight, pretty accurate to 50 ft, can take small game (and still have a spare gun for all the reasons I can't think of).

Not much "fighting" ammo or weapons for over the long haul.
Would prefer to avoid fights if at all possible.
"Fighting" weapons are primarily for discouraging/delaying pursuit.

Would be outnumbered, outgunned, and I am not a gunfighter.
Better to take my chances with quicker egress into forbidding terrain.

Would want to keep load as light as is feasible.
Once clear of the lake, the big enemy is dehydration.

Sweat must be budgeted.

Crossing water is a decent plan, especially given the arid climate you live near. You would likely haver to plot your route from water source to water source. In fact, it would not be a terrible idea to cache some water at regular intervals along your route or near your destination. If the situation appeared to be going bad, you could dig in some five gallon buckets of water and recover them or not, as needed without any big investment other than a little sweat.

I think one of your biggest assets is your detailed knowledge of the area and especially the neighborhoods. If anyone has a good route out that they know like the back of their hand, it should be you.

Your best course of action would be almost certainly be to move at night, and lay up in the shade and rest during the day.

I must admit that after seeing a couple of people mentioning taking weapons with very little ammo, I am very pessimistic about the logic. Why carry a carbine, shotgun, and two pistols with only a few rounds each. I think I would rather have the M-4, five 30 rd. mags, and another five pounds of food or gear than a shotgun and eight rounds to go with it.

If you don't need it, break it down and keep it in your ruck for potential future use. If you really can't carry it, I would put it in a good hiding place where I could come back later and recover it.

I also have a NAA .22 mini-revolver, and I would not count on harvesting game with it, unless the game was a domesticated animal that you could call over to stand while you put it down. Have you tried hitting small targets with it already? Mine works best in a contact kill employment. No precision fire with that.

I think you have the basis for a good plan. You just have to think it through.

TR

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Crossing water is a decent plan, especially given the arid climate you live near. You would likely haver to plot your route from water source to water source. In fact, it would not be a terrible idea to cache some water at regular intervals along your route or near your destination. If the situation appeared to be going bad, you could dig in some five gallon buckets of water and recover them or not, as needed without any big investment other than a little sweat.

I think one of your biggest assets is your detailed knowledge of the area and especially the neighborhoods. If anyone has a good route out that they know like the back of their hand, it should be you.

Your best course of action would be almost certainly be to move at night, and lay up in the shade and rest during the day.

I must admit that after seeing a couple of people mentioning taking weapons with very little ammo, I am very pessimistic about the logic. Why carry a carbine, shotgun, and two pistols with only a few rounds each. I think I would rather have the M-4, five 30 rd. mags, and another five pounds of food or gear than a shotgun and eight rounds to go with it.

If you don't need it, break it down and keep it in your ruck for potential future use. If you really can't carry it, I would put it in a good hiding place where I could come back later and recover it.

I also have a NAA .22 mini-revolver, and I would not count on harvesting game with it, unless the game was a domesticated animal that you could call over to stand while you put it down. Have you tried hitting small targets with it already? Mine works best in a contact kill employment. No precision fire with that.

I think you have the basis for a good plan. You just have to think it through.

TR

Just went with what's currently on the shelf.
If I were to go with what's on the shopping list it might be a bit different.

If items on the shopping list were included there would be a 22lr conversion for the Colt, 22lr conversion for the ar15, lose the shotgun, lose spare 22 mag ammo (keeping 22 mag in cylinder and also bringing 22lr cylinder), add 500 round 22lr.

Would still only take 25 rds 10mm and 60 rds 5.56.
Would be unlikely to throw ar15 in this circumstance.

Have shot small targets w/22 mag.
Not a preferred choice, just going with what was on the shelf.

Egressing the town would be helped some by area knowledge, but it's not really a very big town.
The bigger help in this scenario is the accumulated knowledge of the remote areas.

******************
******************

I know it's a mental exercise, but it's hard to envision a scenario where egress would be favorable.
A large, young family; difficult, remote terrain; and the best place to go is here.

Page, Arizona:
Reliable, redundant power.
Relative to the population size, the most reliable water supply on earth.
A lake full of fish.
Very remote.
Not along any natural (or easy) lines of drift.
Absolute barriers to entry from three directions (cliffs), difficult approach from the other direction, and most of the town is on a mesa with huge fields of fire.
Well-armed, conservative, religious population.
Very conservative local, state, tribal, and federal LEOs (and plenty of them).
Large LDS population (preppers).
Children are a large part of the population (fosters peaceful solutions among adults).
Few single men age 18-25 (trouble makers).
Basically, low initial zombie ratio and low zombie growth rate.
Incoming hostile/tyrannical forces would also be in for one heck of a problem.

Given most zombie scenarios, the big advantage of the UPS drivers is becoming the new phone book when comm systems break down.
We know where to find everyone.
Best chance would be to try to help keep order and build for the future.

[The Reaper]

Nothing wrong with staying in place at home, I lean in that direction as well, just doing a little rock drill here. Sounds like you have a great place to be. I don't want to bug out and leave my stuff behind either. But we might have to eventually, for some reason.

And I agree, your knowledge is a resource that could be used to good effect.

As an alternate, think about how you would get by if we lost electric power, or water, or gasoline, or the ability to transport food, or any number of fragile systems, and you were on your own. Would you stay or would you leave where you are now? Different people will have different answers. Some will be right. Some will not. The best time to plan is before an emergency hits. If you live near the East or Gulf coast, you might want a hurricane plan. Midwest, tornados, or flooding. Kali, earthquakes or wildfires. Up north, winter storms. Or we could all lose the electric grid. Think about it now and decide what you need to do to take care of yourselves and your families. Any plan that you are prepared to execute is better than no plan.


Final point for tonight, not directed ay anyone in particular. You can decide if it is you or not.

This ain't the movies, and you are not Jason Bourne.

You can plan to haul all that and the kitchen sink, but if you have never walked long distances with a heavy load, you have no idea what it is like.

To say that a wife can hump half her body weight cross-country for twelve hours at the time is to be ignorant of that activity. To plan to take 50 pounds of weapons and 45 pounds of food, water, and supplies is unrealistic, unless you are a pack mule for a living.

I would dare say that most of the males on here who think themselves fit (but who have never rucked before) would in fact, be lucky to carry fifty pounds (or one third of your body weight) twelve miles in three hours. That is less than the load of an average infantryman. It will kick your ass, blister your feet, find your weaknesses, and leave you laid up for a day or two.

Test yourself, know what your realistic limits are, come up with a good, solid plan with contingencies (like PACE), and acquire skills. Buying the latest toy and locking it away without having thought of whether you are going to go or stay, acquiring sufficient water, food, shelter (to include warmth and dryness, free of insects), communications, hygiene, etc. is a false security.

Useful skills and the ability to use them are far better than accumulated goods, unless you have a warehouse (and security for it).

Far better to leave a few supplies with a friend at his house, or cached in a remote location than to try and haul 150 pounds of gear on a 100 mile tactical movement. It ain't happening, folks.

If you have more resources to move than you can carry the distance, consider quickly cacheing them (starting early) along the way at relatively secure or remote locations that you hope to return to some day and recover them.

There is a lot to be said for either keeping a low profile, or a very high one. Be the gray man. Hide your weapons, but have at least some of them accessible in short order. If you leave home wearing cammies, or a ghillie suit, or for that matter, an Armani suit, in most neighborhoods, you are going to attract some serious attention. Dress like and as poorly as the locals, at least till you get out of town. Or if you are truly in a lawless situation, get together with some of your pipe hitting brothers you can count on, jocked up and armed to the teeth, and move with a purpose.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

[Ape Man]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

I would dare say that most of the males on here who think themselves fit (but who have never rucked before) would in fact, be lucky to carry fifty pounds (or one third of your body weight) twelve miles in three hours. That is less than the load of an average infantryman. It will kick your ass, blister your feet, find your weaknesses, and leave you laid up for a day or two.

TR

As I am sure The Reaper knows, rucking along a trail and rucking through brush and trees with no trail are two different things. This might be different out west were everything is relativity flat, but out here it can make a big difference. One is brutal, the other seems impossible when you try it for long (and a good way to get hurt if you do it with any kind of weight). But if you really are trying to stay of of sight, I don't think you will be using trails for the first part of the trip.

My rough guess (and I have never tried to do this for a full day) is that I would be lucky to make 12 to 15 miles in a very full day staying off the trails.

[Paslode]

If I had to E&E the area asap

I would take my AR 15 with ACOG, 5-6 mags and a suppressor and my Glock 27 along with a few mags. I could probably pack 100 rounds of spare ammo on stripper clips for the AR in my bag or pockets.

Since my kids would be on this trip as well, I could put another pistol with a couple mags each in each of their small packs. One pistol would be a .22 with suppressor and I could go with another .22 or a 9mm in the other pack.

Ideally, they could also take turns carrying the AR22 (it can use the suppressor) or one could carry a 10/22.

[cat in the hat]

lots of guys humping lots of extra weapons.
i would go with my M4 and 4-5 mags of standard ammo (extra on stripper clips in the ruck) and 40 or so rounds of 40 grain .223 for small animals. it does not completely mangle a prairie dog at 50-75 yards so should work well for rabbits or other small game. load up one mag of light ammo in a 20 rounder so as not to mistake it if you have a target of opportunity.

[The_Mentalist]

Originally Posted by (1VB)compforce

Because I own a 92 right now. My assumption was that we needed to work with what we have on hand (with the possible exception of ammo).

I was considering planning for the future considering the proposed scenario.

[Knight]

TR,
Thanks for the input. I did take the effective range and volume into consideration, and that's what I toyed with for a couple of days. The choice was made due to the great majority of my travel will be in woodlands, but with farmland in between, maybe a rifle would make more sense. Thanks again.

[steel_eel]

-I would take my AR plus 30rd magazine and conceal it in my bag for quick access and wear my LCE w/6-30rd magazines under an inconspicuous jacket in case things got ugly during the egress.
-A loaded 9mm pistol is at center mass inside one of the LCE open-top pouches, secured by bungee pull tab. Two extra magazines on the LCE just in case.
-1:25,000 MGRS/satellite photo map of immediate area along with compass/protractor, supplemented by a Garmin wrist GPS. I know my immediate area very well, but this is neccessary if one needs to find an alternate route on a whim.
-Extra Ammo and food is cached at safe place one and safe place two. Safe place two also has hunting rifles and ammunition. Safe place one is only a rest stop, due to it's close proximity to my home.

My two main concerns are people and water obstacles.
I live in a pretty densly populated area with 3 out of 4 directions surrounded by bodies of water. If this is a situation where the raids are compartmentalized and not part of a grand marshall-law environment, I would probably fair well. If all hell were to break loose then the situation would become more complicated (see:F****d)

[FlagDayNCO]

TR has a point: get together with some of your pipe hitting brothers you can count on, jocked up and armed to the teeth, and move with a purpose.

Know your neighbors, their capabilities, their ability to participate. Also know who may not particiapte or may become a risk.

Having aged and sprouted a family, our Local Pipe Hitters Union has grown. Whether it is tyranny or the loss of Rule of Law, we have strength in numbers. In addition to riflemen, we know who the nurses, doctors, welders, plumbers and (you name it) are.

Community and Fire Base can be married.

[fng13]

Attached is what I'd grab.
Civilian pack loaded with enough food and supplies for a few days. I will have to steal more water along the way but the pack has purification tabs in them and a small whisperlite stove and the fuel bottle goes in the right pocket though it isn't shown. 3 liter camelback will be full. Water isn't difficult to source around here.

Also in the bag is 1st aid, survival supplies, small fishing line and lures, long underware, backpack tent (poles attach under the pack), woobie, cliff bars, 4 - 2 person add water and warm food packs from gander mountain, compass, map in lightweight map case, 3 spare loaded ar-15 mags, 2 spare m&p mags loaded, pocket mesh hammock, few spare batteries, poncho, mess kit, leatherman mut.

Don't have the exact weight on it roughly 25-30 lbs dry.

Nice thing about that pack is i can throw a shirt or or poncho around that AR and it straps to the front of the pack making it semi concealed.

On my hip would be the m&p 9mm in a comp-tac Minotaur, and not shown is two modified safariland kydex ar pouches that go on my belt. all of that is totally concealed.

I'd also grab eiether my bellville waterproof boots or my merrel low hikers. either of which have plenty of time on them.

If people are chasing me I want to be relatively light so I'd probably dump the tent depending on what the weather was like that day and just keep the rain fly.

Rifle has 3000+ rounds down it, has been maintained and i'd trust my life on it. I've hit man size targets with it at 300. Not for groups but I'd feel pretty confident of at least scoring some hits. That's probably the max range i'd want to try and use it for, with that optic anyway.

What I perceive as an advantage with this setup is depending on whether I'm being pursued alone or if it's SHTF I don't stand out too much. I can have the rifle covered and walk right into a town if need be.

I know the weakness here is food and water, but small game and streams are plentiful in my AO so carrying a lot of food is not necessary. The small creature comforts I am packing like the tent are more morale boosters then really necessities.

If I have to cross country 100 miles carrying a rifle with people after me I need to keep my spirits up some, and small things like being a little extra warm or dry at night go a long way. However, they'd be the first things I'd dump if I was over burdened.

Also in my pocket is my PS.com knife, love that thing.

ETA excuse that snap light it's been there since last camp.

[Surf n Turf]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Far better to leave a few supplies with a friend at his house, or cached in a remote location than to try and haul 150 pounds of gear on a 100 mile tactical movement. It ain't happening, folks.
If you have more resources to move than you can carry the distance, consider quickly cacheing them (starting early) along the way at relatively secure or remote locations that you hope to return to some day and recover them.
There is a lot to be said for either keeping a low profile, or a very high one. Be the gray man. Hide your weapons, but have at least some of them accessible in short order. Dress like and as poorly as the locals, at least till you get out of town.

TR,
I have given your scenerio serious thought, and as a certified FOG, there was no way I could hump any weight in 20 mile increments to reach 100 miles. My only answer was to pre-position my bug out required accoutrements in more gradual steps (I'll use 8-10 miles here). Step 1 -- 5 miles from home, very,very (that's 2 verys) secure redoubt, Step 2 thru XX -- 8-10 miles apart, Secure cache / layoff locations -- leading to either final destination (or transportation elsewhere).

Cache sites contain food, water, additional weapons, ammo, clothing, sleeping gear, medications, inert Coms, radio, flashlights, etc., with focus on evading / avoiding others, and what is required to reach next subsequent site. Initial site and final site required the most concentration. What did we need to begin the "bug-out", and what would we need at the end to the journey.

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Another scenario to play with.
You are at home and have five minutes notice that you are about to be raided by a vastly superior force. You need to execute your personal E&E plan.
The streets and roads are already covered for vehicle movement, so you will have to move out on foot to a safe area 100 miles away.
You already have a bug out bag prepared with 45 pounds of food, water, shelter, med gear, survival tools, etc. We can discuss the contents of the bag if you like.
You need to hit the woods on foot and may need to harvest game, defend yourself against predators, and engage small hostile teams. Try not to beat this scenario to death.
Your safe is open and you may grab as many weapons, mags, and as much ammo as you wish to carry.
What do you take and why?
TR

TR,
I will have my BHP with 2 mags, M4 (quiet version, in 5.56), with 5 mags in bandolier. Wife has Browning .22 target, with 2 mags. We grab two bags from safe -- 1 bag$ - 1 bag Au - Step off the property, and we are in the woods enroute to site#1, where we RON (or longer).
That's my plan (1/2 completed to date)
SnT

[PSM]

Originally Posted by Surf n Turf

TR,
I have given your scenerio serious thought, and as a certified FOG, there was no way I could hump any weight in 20 mile increments to reach 100 miles. My only answer was to pre-position my bug out required accoutrements in more gradual steps (I'll use 8-10 miles here). Step 1 -- 5 miles from home, very,very (that's 2 verys) secure redoubt, Step 2 thru XX -- 8-10 miles apart, Secure cache / layoff locations -- leading to either final destination (or transportation elsewhere).

Cache sites contain food, water, additional weapons, ammo, clothing, sleeping gear, medications, inert Coms, radio, flashlights, etc., with focus on evading / avoiding others, and what is required to reach next subsequent site. Initial site and final site required the most concentration. What did we need to begin the "bug-out", and what would we need at the end to the journey.

SnT

This assumes that you would have previous knowledge as to which direction the threat will be coming from. You have recognized your limitations in load carrying and distance covering. I believe that that is exactly the challenge TR is asking us to consider.

BTW, I would stay where I am. One hundred miles in any direction would put me in a worse place. Well, unless I go North along the San Pedro River and meet up with TS heading East along the Gila. I reckon he could probably use someone for KP.

Pat

[The Reaper]

Wow, lots of questions/comments.

Yes, ten to twelve miles per day tactically, in open woods and under loads would probably be difficult enough for most people. Again, I would suggest moving at night without lights and holing up during the day to rest. Moving 1-2 miles per hour quietly would be decent. After the initial burst, five to ten days to move the distance, unless the pursuers were close or I were flushed. Plan water, food, resupply, and RON sites accordingly. I highly recommend a good high-res topo map like a USGS 1:24,000 for short or detailed movements, a 1:50,000 for general navigation, and at least a 1:100,000 or better for general planning.

Paslode, you have the idea, but I would not have young kids openly packing long guns, in case they were spotted.

BO, I agree with your rate of movement, unless you are a young, strong bull traveling fast.

Not sure I would want to interact with the populace, that would depend on who was chasing me, and why, which we did not delve into here. If you did, finding an illegal or migrant farm family, or someone else who avoided the authorities would probably be the best way to go purchase supplies.

cat, I agree completely about the arsenals being taken.

TM, I would say that you can plan on what you have, or on what you think you need and plan to acquire.

No problem, Knight. This should be helpful to anyone planning for contingencies.

s_e, good with the hardware. Don't forget to bring a way to get clean water to drink and some emergency food. Even water that looks clean can put you on your ass for a while.

As Flag noted, unless you are a Superman who can run silently, quickly like the wind, with a ton of gear on your back constantly, for days at the time, buddies are the way to go. Since the environment may not be permissive, you have to have someone alert and ready for trouble all of the time. Having a buddy, or two to move with you makes you much more likely to stay alive. Just remember to always bring one who is slower than you are.

If you are staying home, you need to have the entire neighborhood networked. Or bring in buds to stay with you and help.

fng, you have a good plan and seem to be taking what you need. I probably wouldn't pitch a tent, especially if I were holing up in daylight, maybe a bivvy bag or even a jungle hammock if it was warm. Plentiful water is usually okay, if you treat it, but I would not count on collecting a lot of food. Fishing and trapping require staying in an area a little while. Hanging around water sources is a good way to get spotted, I would stake them out if I were looking for someone evading. Unless you are heavy to start with, I would want 2,500 calories per day or more. Dehydrated or freeze dried is good. A bag of dehydrated rice might be nice with whatever you catch, and if you don't catch anything, throw in a bouillon cube for some flavor.

Hey, SnT, I can relate to getting old and slowing down. It is sound planning to break any long movement into several shorter legs. On trhe other hand, you should be able to move at whatever pace you can for 8-10 hours (with breaks) without breaking down. If that is 20 pounds of water and food with a knife and a pistol in a vest under an old overcoat, so be it. Stashing gear, especially food or ammo is a good idea. Not sure I would leave guns unless it was secured at a buddy's place. Good guns, and I can see taking some cash and metal, just not much, and with a whole lot more food, water, shelter, first aid, etc.

If things went to hell and I had to go 180 from my planned route without my caches, could I do it (even barely, worn out and ragged) with what I was carrying? Remember, pilots shot down in SE Asia were able to survive and in some cases, move long distances and evade with what they had in their vest and pockets. Not too many 100 pound rucks on that ejection seat. Maybe that is a model worth looking at, but I sure would feel nekkid without a long gun.

Pat, I am of the same mindset, I would prefer to stay at home, but unless your plan is to do the "die in place" routine, it never hurts to have a contingency to hit the trail. You get my point. You can't take it all, or even most of it very far. I know where I would go if flushed, and I hope you do too. Never hurts to check out some maps and maybe visit a few points that you found of interest. No matter what direction the threat arrived from, and what direction you departed, you can almost always circle around back onto your preferred route.

My brother told me that an older man said to him one time, "Son, you will never have to run from a fight if you start walking soon enough." There is more than a grain of truth in those words.

Good thoughts guys, and I hope that you are still learning as much from this as I am.

“Omnia mea mecum porto”

TR

[Paslode]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Paslode, you have the idea, but I would not have young kids openly packing long guns, in case they were spotted.

That crossed my mind today as well during my drive. Spotting is one issue, the other issue is we have to trek through 5 miles suburbs playing bound and over watch through culverts, backyards, fences, etc. to reach the point where we can begin avoiding streets and hide if need be. And during that time we all need our hands free. It also crossed my mind that a small ax, small bolt cutters and fence pliers might be useful during this segment.

All in all we would have approximately 15 miles to trek before the subdivisions get spotty and we would have a decent track of heavy woods and brush. After that we have lots of options, the entire trek from the 5 mile point has water and food sources.

My hunch has always been that if something bad were to happen chaos would ensue, people would flood the streets with vehicles trying to get somewhere, the PoPo or whomever would be busy with them, and that would offer a diversion of sorts and an opportunity to move pretty freely.

If it an event where to happen, I hope it is around dusk and in the spring for fall.