Wow, what a huge mistake....... MARSOC going to Glocks

[Combat Diver]

We've been using them for awhile. 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 10th & 20th (haven't worked with any 19th Gp guys) in Astan and Iraq use the G19. There are about 1000 Glocks forward deployed (mostly in Astan). Its one of the guns I got trained at Crane on for SOF weapon repairs.


CD

[Guymullins]

I believe that is should be a design prohibition, to have a safety disengage by moving in the same direction as the trigger does to fire. This prevents any single direction act from firing the gun, be it a brush with a branch or a wayward finger.

[koz]

Originally Posted by miclo18d

I have but one thing to say to that...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k-rGnMKszxg

Serpa Holster? I never liked the need to push a button near the trigger to remove my pistol. Too often I see people's fingers going inside the trigger guard about the same time he shot himself.

[turboprop]

Originally Posted by miclo18d

I have but one thing to say to that...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k-rGnMKszxg

It actually has its own name "Glock Leg". I'm not saying that this guy is MARSOC or that this will happen everyday, but the potential is always there. I have seen weird stuff on the range. I've seen guys dropped off of teams during SFAUC, for silly things that didn't result in injury. What will happen when one of the MARSOC guys shoots himself is that they will train like the Israelis and not carry a round in the chamber. Then they will go back to 1911s

I'm not a fan of Glocks (mostly the hand grip) but I have no problem with people that use them. I personally like an extra bit of safety and nothing wrong with a few extra pounds on the trigger for a back up weapon with a trigger safety. My XDm has a back strap safety and a trigger safety, my wife's FNS has a trigger safety and a thumb safety (that works the correct way, the 1911 way, not the 92F way). Both are striker fire guns and with added safeties comes added options (carrying hot vs safe, on the range vs in my wife's purse, during CQB vs on the street for self defense)

The military making decisions about their equipment based on someone shooting himself as a result of pointing a pistol at his leg and firing would be silly. Is there an argument that him being shot is due to using a Glock? Sounds like "Glock leg" is a synonym for Stupid Hurts.

[DDD]

Is MARSOC replacing their 1911s or are they getting Glocks as well? More gear is always good.

[miclo18d]

Originally Posted by turboprop

The military making decisions about their equipment based on someone shooting himself as a result of pointing a pistol at his leg and firing would be silly. Is there an argument that him being shot is due to using a Glock? Sounds like "Glock leg" is a synonym for Stupid Hurts.

It's called "Glock leg" because most of the people that seem to be shooting themselves in the legs do it with Glocks. I'm sure if it were 1911s, they'd call it "1911 leg". He was drawing from a holster, not intentionally shooting himself. He was trying to get quick on the trigger and got too quick. My point being that a positive safety doesn't take more time to fire than a striker fire with a trigger safety. As far as MARSOC choosing Glock... I'd say, knowing Marines, it was more about cost, than safety or accuracy or anything else.

I personally have nothing against Glocks or Glock shooters, except maybe Yeager and his fanbois. I just don't really like Glock pistols. I've shot them. I have different tastes.

[chance]

[QUOTE=miclo18d;578287]I have but one thing to say to that...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k-rGnMKszxg


He shot himself with a Kimber Pro carry, If you listen you can hear him engage the thumb safety as he places it on the ground.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by koz

Serpa Holster? I never liked the need to push a button near the trigger to remove my pistol. Too often I see people's fingers going inside the trigger guard about the same time he shot himself.

Not sure if serpa has an official training method, but I've used it safely for years to include sub .89 draws, while moving, etc.. IMHOO, the design does invite one to "push the button" using tip of finger, which would naturally result in said finger enters the trigger guard once there's no longer holster between finger and trigger. I personally "press the button" using side of finger i.e. around pip joint and proximal phalanx for the medical folks. Thus, my finger never touches the trigger until the muzzle is oriented to target/ground. With this technique, one never goes "too fast" and becomes unsafe. It's just anatomically impossible.

I do agree with those who see a design flaw and safety liability, but it's easily correctable with a safe technique x 10000 perfect reps.

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

I believe the Glock is a good firearm but wayyyyyy over rated.

Concur. You have to admit though that between GSSF, blue label pricing, NRA tuition free school, LEO armorer classes, and so on, they have the best/most generous marketing strategy, and therefore deserve the dominant international and national market share

[Guymullins]

This was told to me a year ago by a paratrooper friend with no shame. His name is Jaap, which is often used interchangeably for bumpkin. Jaap makes a modest living farm-sitting in the Kalahari semi-desert region. He often looks after a farm of a mutual friend who works as a military advisor (He is in Nigeria right now involved in the anti-Boko Haram offensive). This farm has the cutest colony of Meercats that live in burrows next to the house. They have become completely tame over the years and will often climb all over guests having sundowners, hoping to be fed snacks and be petted.
One late afternoon, Jaap was enjoying a beer on the veranda when a pesky Warthog forced its way under the perimeter fence to get at the vegetable patch.
Jaap jumped to his feet and drew his Glock to either chase the Warthog off or get some pork for breakfast.
In his haste, Jaap shot himself in the ass. Luckily, it was a shallow flesh wound as he was alone and hundreds of kilos from a hospital.
As soon as the Meercats saw and smelt blood, they attacked Jaap, biting him all over the body, but particularly on his legs, which were exposed in his short pants. To keep the Meercats away, Jaap fired off the rest of the magazine in the general direction of his attackers, shooting the veranda full of 9mm holes in the process.
Eventually, Jaap managed to barricade himself in the kitchen, where he could tend to his wounds, the Meercat bites the worst of them.
Jaap recovered completely from the Glock-ass and the Meercat bites, but today warns against both, calling them Fair-Weather Friends.

[FlagDayNCO]

The Marines grabbed plenty of headlines and Colt made some new friends with USMC Generals, in their decision to obtain more 1911 models.

What everyone fails to understand is the amount of upkeep required for 1911 pistols. In the CONUS firing ranges, armorers are just a few minutes away. Over in the sand box, a lot of cleaning is required of the pistols.

Repairs are not as simple as a couple of pins and some springs, the real 1911s are still a hand fitted pistol. The extractor is a prime example.

The move to Glocks is likely more to do with cost, than anything. The Glocks are simple to repair, plus the minimal cost the Big Gubmint pays is nominal compared to what a civilian would pay. Many of the partnership nations also run Glock pistols.

What I thought would have been a better move would have been S&W M&P 9, as they have received very high marks. Not to mention it is an American designed and manufactured weapon. They also have the M&P 45, which shares the major dimensions with the 9, except for length. The grip angle on the M&P is that of the 1911, plus they can be had with a manual thumb safety, a la 1911.

There likely may be some cool factor involved, as well, since the Real SF is playing with Glocks, the MARSOC fellas want to look just as cool.

[Streck-Fu]

The M&P 9 suffered some very serious accuracy issues a couple years ago related to the barrels or lock up issues. S&W chased that ghost for a while. I picked one at a good price as a local sale to try it out and experienced the issues.

I experienced groups much larger than other pistols I owned; as in 3-4" at 10y....at 25 yards, it looked like smoothbore shot gun pattern.

This problem seemed to be contained to the full size M&P9 and did not carry over to other calibers or the compact models.

I liked the firearm well enough and would consider it again if I knew the issues were fixed but the grip was too slim for me.

[Old Dog New Trick]

I've been reading this thread off and on from the beginning and the thing that strikes me is this:

Since the 1911, every handgun has been compared against it. It has many myths surrounding it and some of them are even true; probably a reason it has endured so many years and so many makers and copies. It launches a huge ass chunk of lead accurately (enough) down range with minimal effort and repeatable consistency from the shooter.

One thing it is not. SAFE! It is by its design a weapon designed to kill and to be used by those whom would undergo at least a minimum amount of training and semi-annual training in its use.

Over the years it has had small redesigns to make it "safer" and each one has made it less reliable. For those who have made the gun ever-so-more accurate, they too have made it less reliable.

Problem is with a handgun that is deemed "unsafe" and inherently easy to shoot is the likelihood of "accidental" discharge when it works as it was designed. Enter a hundred other designers to improve upon the concept of making "guns" safe enough for the idiots that carry them. Chamber indicators, DAO, DA/SA, Decocking levers, Decocking/Safety levers, etc...

Police don't and haven't spent the time, money and resources to properly train and provide refresher training. Citizens seldom seek or rehearse the skills needed to properly maintain the skills needed to operate such a "deadly" weapon. And lastly, even those in the military have limited budgets and resources to adequately train and maintain the skills necessary to operate "non-primary" systems as seen in the eyes of leadership.

The "revolver" was for the longest time considered a "safe" alternative to semi-automatics. Its inherent and simple safety-less design meant even idiots could safely carry one around without the risk of shooting themselves or someone else in the excitement of the situation.

Enter the Glock. The simplicity and difficulty of a hammer-less revolver in the form of a magazine fed semi-automatic pistol. 75-plus years of manufacturing and computer assisted design finally produced a rival to the tried and true perfection of the original John Browning design created with a lead pencil and a blank sheet of paper.

I can see why the military, police, and just about everyone (including my wife and self) have a Glock for "self-defense" and duty carry.

I miss shooting my 1911's and never had a problem with a dozen or so over the years. They all worked "as designed."

[MtnGoat]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

1911's are as bad as glocks. The only reason 1911's are still around is that a certain Ranger unit uses them (delta force) and old men are still teaching them as the best handgun on the planet.

Yeah, read that again. If delta was not using them they would have gone the way of the dodo.

Last I saw CAG was carrying Glock 26 40 cal. Along with 75th RGR.

[frostfire]

MtnGoat, I think you meant G27. I've met CIF members who carried G26 downrange though.

Originally Posted by frostfire

they have the best/most generous marketing strategy, and therefore deserve the dominant international and national market share

While I see the release of G43 is uber-hyped, this is a well-made, pro-CCW, pro-armed Americans commercial....too bad it'll never be on tv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMtvjwnF9q4
http://singlestack9.com/

Need to check availability of extended grip with +2 rounds, aftermarket sights, and LEO/mil price on this...
I'm already comfortable with G26 even past 25m, sacrificing capacity for 4mm thinner might not be worth it

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

Umm no. Lots of people in the 1911 world think like this but the "real" 1911 is easily worked on, disassembled etc. For the snobs that want to have race gun yes but for the basic combat ready 1911 they are easy to wok on and do NOT need a lot of hand fitting etc. Everything is easy to replace and drop in. The combat 1911 was designed to work anyplace and worked well. Much like the AK 47 it was made to be a bit loose so it would reliably function in dirt etc.

I have had four 1911's since 1989 and done a lot of work on them and I am by FAR not a gunsmith. The only 1911 that ever jammed on my was my Kimber Pro Carry I had years ago. I sent it back to them and they fixed the issue. One of the 1911's I had was a Chinese Norinco and I almost guarantee it was not hand fitted. It never jammed and was accurate.

For what it's worth, I find my clark custom 1911 racegun just as easy to work on as my Pawnshop Special 1911 I picked up for a song years back. I may be lucky in that neither have ever jammed and they "Just Work."

That being said, I don't have much in the way of rounds fired on either of them ever since I started saving for a house; from memory the clark might possibly be at 1k rounds now.

And for my daily carry, I do like something simpler.