M9 Issues

[Guy]

Chindo18Z:

Sounds like you like the Glock?

[Chindo18Z]

Serpent: My apologies for getting off thread and turning M9 problem post into a discussion of substitutes for the Beretta.

In a nutshell, my take on the M9:

Pros: High Capacity; Excellent Feeding Reliability; Quick First Shot (DA w/ Safety OFF); Acceptable to Good Trigger Pull and Accuracy

Cons: Marginal Caliber (in FMJ), Overly Large for a 9mm Platform & Concealed Carry; Poor Durability Under Heavy Use by SOF, Superfluous Safety (Needs Decocker Only); Front Sight Not Replaceable; GI Magazine Problems.

Of these, the high capacity is my favorite "pro" and the poor durability is my least favorite "con". The gun is kinda like a FIAT; when it's running it's great...when it breaks, you are standing by the side of the road, SOL. Excepting previously mentioned breakage issues, the M9 is an excellent military handgun.

If I had to walk into a room, take a brand new factory semi-auto out of its wrapper, load it, and walk into the next room for a gunfight, I have a very short list of candidates (YMMV):

GI 1911A1 .45 ACP (Ball Ammo Only)
Browning P-35 (Ball Ammo Only)
SIG 220
HK USP/C .40
CZ-75/85
Beretta 92 / M9 (and pray that it doesn't decide to let go right then)

and, yes Guy...Glock (any size, any caliber)

Despite thinking highly of Glocks (having owned several since the 1980s), I would not choose one as a general issue replacement for the M9 in SOF. I've become disenchanted with observed and reported ADs (even good guys have brain-lock), re-holstering/carry limitations, and plastic sights for hard use. Glocks are great weapons for fast presentation but somewhat problematic to put away quickly and safely (in the dark, in full kit/body armor, while prone, while in a vehicle, while moving, etc.).

Concerning military handgun selection, it's not ALL about the quickest first shot. It's also about Stress, Fear, Adrenaline, Darkness, Cold, Wet, Diminished Fine Motor Skills, Weapon Manipulation w/o Looking Anywhere but Downrange, and Fratricide (whether in Combat or Training). I'm willing to bet that the service 1911A1 inflicted as many friendly casualties in un-trained hands as it inflicted on the enemy over 80 years. Easy to say "more training"; less easy to be the Commander doing the 1506 Investigation.

I used to think that DA/SA was a solution in search of a problem...no longer. It's one of the neat things about the HK, Beretta, SIG series. Teach a guy to thumb the lever after engaging and the weapon is safe and ready to reholster.

For all that, I am personally very comfortable with cocked-and-locked, and would make damn sure that my guys were too. Just like teaching our guys to carry the M9 hot & safety off. The main thing is to come to a single, simple manual of arms that allows you to rapidly engage the enemy with a minimum of extra actions (sounds like the Glock...yes?) and THEN, just as rapidly put it away. Not as easy as it sounds when you are REALLY PUMPED, looking for your holster with gloved hands, and have a hot Glock in your mitts...

I like being able to make the weapon positively SAFE while it's in front of me, put away, and get back to other tasks at hand (driving, radio call, clear primary M4A1, etc.)

Damn...I drifted off topic again. Oh, well. I once voted FOR the M9 before I voted AGAINST it...

[JHB]

Don't feel bad everybody dislikes the M-9. The rumor at one time for Berretta was that in is later productions the metal alloy was not up to spped with the higher pressures of the NATO 9mm round. Since then the design of the new Berretta .357 Sig. was to replace the problems. We all now the Govt. will adopt another new calliber. The 357 is not a world wide round, but still very sweet.

I would still keep my HK or Glock all have seen close to 35-45K and still performs great. Keep the Berretta where it belongs, In a display case or with the Air Force.....

For What it's worth!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sinister]

Chindo, we put together the prototype guns based on what USASOC asked for. The idea for an "A2" was to get it adopted and issue M1911A1s immedaitely as an "In lieu of" item.

Springfields fell out because there's no North America production base for the frames and slides. Caspians will come with frontstrap checkering already done, and slides won't have front striations. You won't need a bushing wrench. It'll be throated and ported for GI Ball and Winchester 185 +P (per spec).

There isn't a barrel maker in the United States who makes a stainless .45 barrel, hammer, or other internals who can meet Army production demand and maintain MILSPEC or better accuracy. Period.

There is no out-of-the-box production M1911A1 made in the United States that produces X-ring accuracy. M9 E-type, yes -- X-ring, no.

USASOC asked for Gucci colors.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Great thread and discussion. I am learning a lot.

It sounds a little like once again they tried to get one tool that will meet everybody's needs. Maybe E-type accuracy is good enough for a defensive pistol for 99% of the military in other words. The other 1% need X ring for offensive purposes.

I did not know the M9 was pushed by the Air Force - I find it incredible that the AF or blue Navy would even have a dog in the hunt. The SOC needs to do like Reaper said in another post - basically become a branch. Own promotions, own procurement, etc. This type of conflict will go on long enough to justify that I think. Maybe put it as the ops program for the Agency. Does it sound like i'm trying to reform the OSS yet?

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by jatx

I have some experience with the USP Compact. In one day of training last year, I ran about 400 rounds through mine and experienced multiple malfunctions. The slide would not return to full battery after being released on several occasions (and I wasn't just thumbling the slide release). That was easily solved by smacking the rear of the slide. Then, with each of my four magazines, I experienced double feeds. Finally, I experienced multiple extraction problems, with the spent casings sometimes rotating 180 degrees and getting stuck in the chamber, sometimes flying straight backward and leaving a bloody mark on my forehead.

I walked off the range and called it a day when the rear sight worked loose. The gun was brand new (<1000 rounds), clean, and I was shooting plain old 230 gr. Winchester hardball. Not sure I'd want to see you guys depending on this one, either, FWIW. Oh, and the 8 lbs. "single action" trigger pull isn't exactly a winner, either...

Jatx,
I’ve yet to hear anyone experience the kinds of problems you seem to have had with a H&K pistol. I can say I’ve never had any of the problems you’ve mentioned, where did you receive your weapons training? I see by your profile you are an investment banker, I was a professional soldier, you think there might be a correlation there? All I own in H&K pistols and would not hesitate to use them in a combat situation.

All you SF AD types, why you guys do not have a better sidearm at the present time is beyond me. Actually I would venture to guess its all about politics, sad but IMO true.

I’m not going to beat a dead horse, the M9 should be thrown in the trash can. Simply the worst pistol ever fielded for SOF in our great history. The only reason we acquired the weapon is it was free and as all the general purpose forces were issued the gun so were we. Its sad we didn’t take a stand then and turn it away.

If I were running the show I would not issue kimbers, too high end and with a high end piece comes a high maintenance cost and down time. Only if every operator was issued 2 kimbers would I even think about it. The other organizations that currently utilize the kimbers can also easily afford the cost and down time.

It’s time to ask Springfield Armory, Colt, Remington, etc to build a weapon for SOF. A pistol that will NOT be marketed for the FBI, LEO’s, etc, an offensive handgun with rails, lights, silencers etc. Why won’t they build one, I’m betting two reasons, money and a litigious society.

TS

[Razor]

Are the MARSOC guys using a Series I (no goofy firing pin safety) Kimber with a rail? They may have some useful input on whether they hold up or not.

[Chindo18Z]

Originally Posted by Sinister

Chindo, we put together the prototype guns based on what USASOC asked for. The idea for an "A2" was to get it adopted and issue M1911A1s immedaitely as an "In lieu of" item.

Springfields fell out because there's no North America production base for the frames and slides. Caspians will come with frontstrap checkering already done, and slides won't have front striations. You won't need a bushing wrench. It'll be throated and ported for GI Ball and Winchester 185 +P (per spec).

There isn't a barrel maker in the United States who makes a stainless .45 barrel, hammer, or other internals who can meet Army production demand and maintain MILSPEC or better accuracy. Period.

There is no out-of-the-box production M1911A1 made in the United States that produces X-ring accuracy. M9 E-type, yes -- X-ring, no.

USASOC asked for Gucci colors.

Sinister: All Good Points! Did not understand the USASOC proponency for your project. Thought you were trying to convince THEM to buy a bottom generated proposal. Alles klar... I think I know some of the folks responsible. That explains the fashion finishes. One of my current projects is to generate Co/Bn level user feedback to USASFC concerning proposed specs for the M-9 replacement. They are asking all Groups for input NLT EOM November.

Re: Stainless barrels & parts; agreed. Don't particularly care a hoot about them. Nor stainless frame/slide. Nice to have but not necessary.

Re: "X-ring". All right, I'm not a competitive shooter. I'll agree. But...I have SEEN arms room issue 1911A1s, fired by expert shooters (former AMU, Camp Perry competitors, etc.) put all rounds inside the 10 ring (with most clustered on/around the x) at 25M slow aimed fire. Most GI guns can produce 3-5 inch groups (mechanical accuracy). Down at team level, this translates into 1) all rounds COM chest at combat firing distance (1M-15M) or 2) controlled pairs (aimed) to the head of E-type at 25M. Been there, done that, repeatedly, and with SOT classes which included previous non-shooters (after 2 - 3 weeks of training). Accuracy has never been the issue. 1911 or M9...both are accurate enough. If you guys can make it work reliably w/ the NM parts (and a bit more accuracy), I'm definitely for it. Sights will really make the big difference.

I really like the idea of breaking out the 1911A1s. Armory refurbished, with new commercial sights, and some decent grips...that would be a 90% solution that would blow away the M-9 right now.

Just out of curiosity, I'm assuming Govt Model Frame/Slide & 5" barrel?

Your prototypes sound good. Hope I didn't sound like I was trying to teach anyone to suck eggs. I get a little passionate about the topic and find it easy to climb onto my soapbox. Again, good luck.


Jatx: Sorry to hear about your HK. Honestly, it sounds like you got a lemon (every manufacturer makes them). I have the same gun. Runs like a champ. I'm still waiting for the first malfunction. I just simulate malfunction drills with that pistol. I usually hate over-hyped, over-priced, overblown hardware, but have to admit, HK makes a fine pistol in the USP series. Thinking seriously about getting the .45 Compact version.

[SERPENT5XX]

Chindo18Z

Great posts!

I agree with your take on a 1911. Often we are our own worst enemy when trying to select a new weapon. Ft Bragg likes to say we do not even know what we want. In some ways this is true because everybody starts arguing what brand, what kind of magazine release, what match so and so part etc. It reminds me of ordering pizza with a large goup. At some point you just need to agree. You can scrape the stuff off you really do not like later but at least you got pizza.

I would be happy with a basic COMBAT 1911. Fixed Novak type sights, a beavertail, a standard safety, standard mag release and accurate enough to hit “One Minute of Man” at 25 yards. If Ft. Bragg provided that I would be happy. Any modification to the standard issue could be done by unit Gunsmith. Grips, grip panels, skate-board tape and other trimmings could be installed by the user. As far as Gucci colors- Wally World matte Krylon. Personally I have never been in a situation where the camouflage of my holstered pistol was an issue, but hey if it makes a guy feel better spray away.

Meanwhile the unit broke 2 more locking blocks in the last two weeks.

Thanks to everybody for the great information.

SERPENT5XX

[Sinister]

Serpent, our thoughts as well. Back in the day (when we were clearing with basic M1911A1s and M16A1s) we could modify our pistols any way we wanted them, and if they had to be evac'ed or Code-H'ed the armorer put the base plain-Jane parts back on and shipped the gun out, sometimes never to be seen again.

On other teams we had two 45s per Soldier -- one a National Match that could shoot five shots into one hole, and the other a rattly old pistol that would shoot every time (like an AK).

Then came the A2s and M9s, and they sat in the racks while we shot our TDA 45s and Colt M723s (M4 lower, A1 upper with M4 barrel) until those pistols fell apart, and then there was nothing else. Eventually the M9s replaced all the 45s (sad day when I cracked my last slide) and the M4s replaced the 723s.

[skibum]

Razor, the MARSOC ICQB(Interim CQB) pistol is a series I pistol. It does have a rail, an after market Dawson Precision (Kimber did not have the integral light rail frame, or it was not yet proven at the time of purchase). Pat Rogers on Tactical Forums has posted extensively on them, so I won't try to remember and regurgitate everything. I will say that he reports they held up very well to a heavy round-count (around 20K-plus, I think) during the Det's work-up. It has a lot of MIM parts.
Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by Chindo18Z

I'm willing to bet that the service 1911A1 inflicted as many friendly casualties in un-trained hands as it inflicted on the enemy over 80 years.

I'll take that bet. You'll lose.

I have SEEN arms room issue 1911A1s, fired by expert shooters (former AMU, Camp Perry competitors, etc.) put all rounds inside the 10 ring (with most clustered on/around the x) at 25M slow aimed fire.

As a pistol team competitor, I saw a demonstration by an AMU member/President's 100 shooter in which he placed 10 rounds through a ragged hole at 25 meters, all Xs.... 2 upright, 2 with pistol sideways left, 2 with pistol upside down (squeezing trigger with pinky), 2 sideways right and 2 upright again.

[Jeff22]

I am a retired Security Policeman from the Air National Guard (also did 4 yrs in the local MP detachment) and currently a civilian police officer.

During my military career, I carried the S&W 15 .38 revolver, the M1911Al and the Beretta M9. In all cases I liked them so much I bought examples for my personal battery.

I keep pretty good track of how many rounds I expend in practice. I broke the locking block on my original 92FS at about 18,000 rounds and cracked the frame at slightly over 30,000 rounds. (Beretta replaced it for free)

During my civilian police career, I've carried a Colt Combat Commander, a Smith & Wesson 15 and a Sig 226. I've shot two Sigs to destruction -- takes about 35,000 rounds to break the frame rails (using standard velocity ammo). One was my issue gun that I got in December of 1989 and broke in September of 2001, and the other was a used gun in which I was the 4th or 5th owner. (both guns were replaced by Sig for free).(We just transitioned to the 226R-DAK in .40 cal a couple weeks ago.)

Everything breaks if you shoot it enough.

I personally always liked the M9 and shot it very well, but I believe the circumference of the grip is too big for a general issue gun. Personnel with smaller hands just couldn't deal with the length of pull from the backstrap to the trigger.
(I have big hands and long fingers, and I can make most guns work).

I always thought the M1911 style pistols fit just about any hand because they were so thin. But before I'd let GIs or cops carry "cocked & locked" (which I did as a civilian for about 6-1/2 years) I'd make sure they had a significant amount of initial training and frequent retraining. You have to know what you're doing with a single action auto pistol carried in condition one.

[kgoerz]

Working at SFARTEC where we issued students the the same M-9 pistols time after time. The only part we had consistantly break was the Locking Block.

[longtab]

But how many problems are guys experiencing with M9 Brigadier's? Which MOST ODA's should have by now, or at least the Brigadier slide.

I shot over 10,000 rounds through my team pistol this last trip. No problems with issue ammo, but it didn't like the cheapo 9mm we gave our Iraqi's. It wouldn't malfunction but it would function slow. The pistol shoots fine, hits what I point it at, and was on my leg on every mission. My only complaint is that its made for a girls hands but that is remedied by Hogue "man grips", also I wish the safety was a decocker only like the 92G. FWIW I think its a pretty decent pistol, of course I've never had a slide fly off and smack me in the teeth either. My 2¢.