Malfunctions...how do you remediate???

[HOLLiS]

I had a double feed on a M16, and Yep NO %$#@ way to open it up. The forward pivot pin was not coming out. Fortuantely it was during a training. With time I was able to dig the spent case out.

It does point out the "club" factor of any firearm. When it ceases to work, how good of a club is it.

[Endorphin Rush]

I believe that Peregrino and CoLawman hit this nail on the head with their explainations behind the teaching and use of the TapRackBang drill.


OK, so let's talk about the M4...

How's this for remediating a double feed malfunction, or similar, in a Colt M4:

1. Lock the bolt to the rear...
2. Rip/Remove the mag from the magazine well...
3. Rack the charging handle 2-3 times, or until the weapon is clear of any rounds/
casings...
4. Insert new magazine...
5. Rack the charging handle...

or, would it be better to just automatically drop the mag first as Gene Econ suggested, followed by steps 3 through 5 as described above.

(Yes, transition to handgun first if rounds are needed on a threat. And later remediate the M4 using whatever best cover is available.)

[Scotty]

FWIW, If it's the same Jeff Gonzales he's a former SEAL and (from what I hear) a decent instructor. I'm sure he had a reason to instruct that method of clearing, but asking him would have been the only way to find out why.

If you talk to him again, tell him to get back to Charlotte! He owes me a beer.

Scotty

Regarding M4 double feeding, here's the FM solution:
U.S. Army Field Manual, FM 3-22.9, Chapter 3
Troubleshooting and destruction

[..]

3-2. Malfunctions
a. Failure to Feed, Chamber, or Lock. A malfunction can occur when loading the rifle or during the cycle of operation. Once the magazine has been loaded into the rifle, the forward movement of the bolt carrier group could lack enough force (generated by the expansion of the action spring) to feed, chamber, or lock the bolt (Figure 3-1).

[Figure 3-1 Failure to feed, chamber, or lock, showing what I believe to be two M16A2 uppers with the lower one having a round injected into the chamber. Between them list reads]:

• Failure to feed first round.
• Bold carrier not fully closed.
• A double feed of two live rounds.

[...]

(2) Corrective Action
Applying immediate action usually corrects the malfunction. To avoid the risk of further jamming, the firer should watch for ejection of a cartridge and ensure that the upper receiver is free of any loose rounds. If immediate action fails to clear the malfunction, remedial action must be taken. The carrier should not be forced. If resistance is encountered, which can occur with an unserviceable round, the bolt should be locked to the rear, the magazine removed, and the malfunction cleared. For example, a bolt override is when a cartridge has wedged itself between the bolt and charging handle. The best way to correct this problem is by-

• Ensuring the charging handle is pushed forward and locked in place.
• Securing the rifle and pulling the bolt to the rear until the bolt seats completely into the buffer well.
• Turning the rifle upright and allowing the overridden cartridge to fall out.

The immediate action drill is listed on that same page, although I'm positive you already know it.

Just my .02

Martin

[Endorphin Rush]

Scotty,

Yes. I'm referring to THE Jeff Gonzales. However, these methods are not instructed by him. The methods that I've posted are those taught by my department's instructors. I did not attend Jeff's course. A teammate of mine did. What he brought back from Jeff's course is the impetus for the questions that I'm asking.

If I ever get to meet him, and I'd love to get to one of his courses, I'll tell him you were asking about him.



Thanks for the replies, gentlemen.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by Martin

Regarding M4 double feeding, here's the FM solution:For example, a bolt override is when a cartridge has wedged itself between the bolt and charging handle. The best way to correct this problem is by-

• Ensuring the charging handle is pushed forward and locked in place.
• Securing the rifle and pulling the bolt to the rear until the bolt seats completely into the buffer well.
• Turning the rifle upright and allowing the overridden cartridge to fall out.

Martin

Martin:

Roger that -- 'bolt override'. This technique was written by folks who work at Rock Island. I have great respect for some of them. The guy who wrote this procedure I may have difficulty with as it doesn't represent reality.

Good luck pulling the bolt to the rear and no, most of the time the spent cartridge won't fall out. Most of the time you will spend about ten minutes prying the spent cartridge with leatherman or perhaps a screw driver.

I have had guys stand the errant carbine on its stock and hold the barrel with great force as I slam my boot down on the charging handle repeatedly until I can get the bolt back far enough to ensure better prying of the brass.

I can't say I have seen one instance of this where the brass just comes out.

I have had an aversion to the issued carbines for close to fifteen years due to such experiences. My view is changing though as I have seen more and more new carbines actually function properly. However, I still don't trust them as much as I would a service length upper. Never found the barrel length to be as significant as stock length on issued M-16 series of weapons in terms of speed. Have always found that the issued 20 inch barrel will outperform the carbine barrel hands down and it seems there are far less 'bolt overides' and other problems with the service length uppers than the carbines.

Gene

[Team Sergeant]

Martin,

I’m aware what the manual says and a double feed with an M-4 usually leads to a “remedial” action and not a malfunction drill.

I’m not one that believes in SPORTS, or have ever taught it to others. I believe a quick glance says it all and one should take action from there.
Proximity to bad guys is key to a malfunction drill, remedial action or transition.

Team Sergeant

[Gene Econ]

Guys:

I have been thinking on this thread for a few days in fact and perhaps my observations can be of assistance concerning malfunctions drills for the issued M-16 series of weapons.

I have had the unique opportunity to watch a wide variety of soldiers go through some unique weapons training we have been conducting for two Stryker Brigades at Lewis. I have observed soldiers perform immediate action on their M-16A2s and M-4 carbines. My observations and conclusions are relatively simple but it took a while for me to figure them out and this was based on talking with said soldiers following their training.

Soldiers will perform a malfunctions drill according to their self training. 'SPORTS' is a basic drill -- most of which is unnecessary if the soldier knows what happened when it happened. One thing I will say about this drill is that it defies human nature and thus it does nothing more than cause confusion within the soldier and results in a decrease in confidence as opposed to an increase. Why does this defy human nature? Because Americans are, by our culture, very much focused on critical thinking and the first step in such a process is to 'see' the problem. Thus soldiers hesitate when being told to 'Slap, and Pull' prior to 'Observe'. Human nature is to look first and when you see someone out of AIT hesitate when he has to reduce a stoppage etc., it is because what the bureaucrats teach isn't human nature at all. Joe understands that to undo a problem, he must first know what it is and this is normally by seeing the problem prior to acting. I have noted three categories of shooter in our little world.

One is out of AIT and for him, doing what the Army taught him is primary. When what the Army taught him doesn't work, he gets seriously confused as he has never been taught to think in Basic or AIT. Cold War bureaucracy at work.

The second has some experience and isn't concerned about how someone sees him perform. However, this category lacks the confidence to critically think then act so he hesitates before he unfucks the problem. Many of the guys we have had in this cagetory have significant combat experience. Unfortunately, they have never really drawn any conclusions from this experience nor have they bothered to learn their trade in terms of setting some professional goals for themselves and then achieving those goals.

The third type is far different. These guys have significant combat experience PLUS they have learned how their weapons work. Combat experience does not necessarily relate to common sense guys. However, combine the experience with a guy who can critically think and who has spent the time to learn his profession --and you have 'The Next Level'.

Why can't I give any solutions to malfunction issues? Because guys on different levels of mental performance will do things differently. The AIT grads will do SPORTS even if the rifle is plain empty. The second classification will look then get confused for a second, then try parts of SPORTS, then fix the problem. The third level ('Next Level' as we call this) of guys hears and feels what happened based on noise and recoil and they will probably look to confirm their subconscious understanding taken in by feel and sound -- then will take the correct action and do so in a very short period of time. They went into the course of fire or drill totally aware and thus are like lightning when a problem occurs.

OK -- how can you train someone to get to the 'Next Level' in these terms? Well, if you want to spend some time and very little resources -- you can train the guys to do the right things very quickly and perfectly. Focus them on what a rifle feels and sounds like when it locks back on an empty magazine. Use various types of dummy cartridges to replicate double feeds or other failures to function and let the guys feel and hear what this is. It won't take long for them to come to some conclusions -- however we have found that you have to let guys develop their own sense of trust in what their senses are taking in.

I will say two things about the Army doctrine of SPORTS. First, it works in technical terms. Second, it fails in terms of critical thinking, cognitive development, and human nature.

So I don't know the best way to do this simple action and we don't try to influence soldiers on any best way. What we do is to ensure the soldier knows what thngs sound and feel like and then train them to trust themselves.

Esoteric? He, he, he. It works far better than incessant drills with no thought involved.

Gene

Sirs Gene and TS, roger, and thank you for pointing that out.

Martin

[NousDefionsDoc]

I have had good luck pulling the bolt to the rear with a hammer on the charging handle....

[Scotty]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

I have had good luck pulling the bolt to the rear with a hammer on the charging handle....

Yes, but you do that to charge the weapon even when there's NOT a malfunction!

Good to see you, Sneaky! Missed your humor.

Scotty

[Endorphin Rush]

I have had good luck pulling the bolt to the rear with a hammer on the charging handle....

I've been tempted to use my 1911 for this. It's made of steel...you can use it for such things such as this, can't you????

a double feed with an M-4 usually leads to a “remedial” action and not a malfunction drill.

I believe a quick glance says it all and one should take action from there.

Proximity to bad guys is key to a malfunction drill, remedial action or transition.

Absolutely!

So I don't know the best way to do this simple action and we don't try to influence soldiers on any best way. What we do is to ensure the soldier knows what thngs sound and feel like and then train them to trust themselves.

Esoteric? He, he, he. It works far better than incessant drills with no thought involved.

OK, this is where I was looking to go.

NDD once posted a thread (maybe in a different forum, even) where he simply asked a simple question and let the topic develop. I was hoping that was what would happen here. And you folks did not disappoint.

While I WAS looking for literal examples of HOW you were doing things, I was hoping that some might delve into the esoteric aspects of this topic.

This is GOOD stuff.

Thanks guys. Keep going...???

[NousDefionsDoc]

I don't do SPORTS either. I am, however, required to teach it. I also look at the problem and fix it, after I transition and clear. I do it pretty much without thinking about it.

My weapons tend not to malfunction much. I don't know why that is.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

My weapons tend not to malfunction much. I don't know why that is.

I do.

[7624U]

With the M-4 make sure your Bravo's get the new extractor springs with O-ring this will fix alot of the double feed problems if a carbine does it alot.
as for unsticking bolts, the edge of a helmet used as a hammer works better then the old step on the chargeing handle trick and is alot safer.