Protecting the Second Amendment – Why all Americans Should Be Concerned

[Sdiver]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

No, but I do not see violent resistance as any wise solution either.

Originally Posted by BryanK

Shays' Rebellion seemed to be a good "teachable moment".

Let's not forget The Battle of Athens.

http://www.libertynewsonline.com/article_301_31808.php

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

If you have time to fight the government you have time to protest instead.

The soapbox comes before the cartridge box.

Has it not been tried already?

TR

[Lan]

The time for protest ended when Obama got re-elected.

[mojaveman]

Apparently Nancy Grace doesn't like Englishman Piers Morgan commenting on 2nd Ammendment issues in the U.S. I don't either. I thought her comment about British soldiers and armed Patriots was spot on.

The Limey can go home any time he wants to.

http://tv.yahoo.com/news/nancy-grace...150835400.html

[ZonieDiver]

Originally Posted by Lan

The time for protest ended when Obama got re-elected.

So... are you going in with the first wave?

[ddoering]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

But Sir, the difference I'd say is that Washington was fighting against a government in which the colonists had no representation. We have representation with our government.

Seems like we re almost there again. Do you really trust our elections? Dead people voting, undocumented people voting..... At what point do the people draw the line?

[tonyz]

As I read this thread over the past couple of days...I am simultaneously reminded of the striking and important title of this thread, the content of the influential, heartfelt and well written letter in the OP and the content of the recent OP-ED piece in the Hartford Courant which stands in stark contrast to both.

Thus, I do not read this thread as one calling for insurrection...unless, of course, you perhaps take the editorial board of the Hartford Courant at their word...

The editorial board of the Hartford Courant is calling for registration and prosecution...not of gang bangers or felons...but of otherwise law abiding folks - overwhelmingly good citizens - who became criminals overnight.

The passion illustrated in some posts in this thread strongly suggests just what is at stake...knowing full well that registration leads to confiscation...

We are undeniably in a clash of cultures - we are currently in the protest phase - protests may or may not succeed.

But, if the advocates for the 2A fail - make no mistake - those who advocate for the "fundamental transformation" of our great country...will succeed.

Molon Labe!

[ddoering]

Its not the people who are in insurrection when they are standing up for their God-given rights. I believe it is oppressive government that is in insurrection.

[tonyz]

Originally Posted by ddoering

Its not the people who are in insurrection when they are standing up for their God-given rights. I believe it is oppressive government that is in insurrection.

Absolutely.

Oppressive government and many in the lap dog media are standing in opposition to the people and their unalienable right to self defense.

The insurrection, the escalation in rhetoric in CT is being fomented by folks who buy ink by the barrel against otherwise law abiding folks - who overwhelmingly just wanted to be left alone.

[sinjefe]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

No, but resorting to violence would only get a bunch of people killed at best. What is the planned outcome of fighting in something like this? You think the authorities would just say, "Okay, we've had enough of the fighting, let all the gun people head home..." no, they'd seek to arrest as many as they could, and there might well be a military response.

I'm sorry, but that has to be the silliest thing I have read in awhile. I am sure people said the EXACT same thing to our founders.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by tonyz

Absolutely.

The insurrection, the escalation in rhetoric in CT is being fomented against otherwise law abiding folks who overwhelmingly just wanted to be left alone.

And what was it, 100,000 said no to registering their "assault" rifles......

I think that's a "special kind of NO". I want to see the public officials that passed that "law" go and take away those evil rifles from those folks.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

Remember also that the Founders did not believe in insurrections. Article I, Section 8, Clause 15 of the Constitution says,

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Also read this portion of the Declaration of Independence, written by Thomas Jefferson:

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

Jefferson was an admirer of Tacitus and Tacitus wrote about the dangers of what happens when a representative system of government breaks down, i.e. despotism is usually the result. So while the Founders did believe in resistance to a tyrannical government, they meant when the government becomes really, truly tyrannical. They also recognized the danger in that many people who feel shorted by the political process might try staging a violent resistance, i.e. insurrection, and hence there is the provision in the Constitution to use the militia to suppress insurrections.

So the Founders I believe would think that resistance to the representative system of government doing something like trying to confiscate guns should mostly be peaceful, not violent. If our government becomes a variant of the Assad regime, then that is when violence would probably be needed.

I think you mistake Thomas Jefferson for some sort of pacifist.

Thomas Jefferson, January 30, 1797: "....I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government....."

Jefferson, November 13, 1787:....God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independent 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. What country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure. Our Convention has been too much impressed by the insurrection of Massachusetts: and in the spur of the moment they are setting up a kite to keep the hen-yard in order. I hope in God this article will be rectified before the new constitution is accepted. — You ask me if any thing transpires here on the subject of S. America? Not a word. I know that there are combustible materials there, and that they wait the torch only. But this country probably will join the extinguishers...."

Personally, I think your positions are too easily taken, as you have no skin in this game, so to speak.

TR

[ddoering]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

I think our elections (putting aside the IRS) are overall pretty trustworthy right now. The GOP won big-time in 2010 remember.

And I don't. Our electoral system is as corrupt as a Chicago politician. Why do they fight so hard to keep people from showing ID to vote? Elections are decided by 1-2% of the vote.

[ddoering]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

The Founders were fighting a war for independence against the English though. The goal was literally to throw the British off and form a new independent country. What would be the goal here? Also remember that the Founders took a HUGE risk, as the English were fighting another war at the time and thus couldn't devote their full strength to the war in America and also the colonies received help from the French.

And why were they fighting? Because they felt that government didn't represent them. They were fighting to remove that government and to form one that would represent them.

Perhaps you should ask Bloomberg for your nuts back.

[sinjefe]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

Having a representative system of government in place already is a huge accomplishment. If it encounters problems, then IMO you work to fix those problems, not upend the system. If you upend the current government, replacing it with one that is just as good or better is extremely difficult and usually doesn't happen. But let's say a revolution happened where we overthrew the current federal government and managed to put a brand-new democratic government in place. You think it wouldn't be just as corrupt? All democratic systems of government will be corrupt to some degree with power-hungry politicians that seek to infringe on rights in various ways.

Also, corruption in the elections is nothing new. When you read about some of the stuff that used to go on in the earlier times of our country regarding elections, it makes one's head spin. The mob played a role in getting JFK elected for example.

"What country ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure. " - Thomas Jefferson

Why do you think he said that?