Are we at war with Islam?

[JHD]

Originally Posted by Trapper John

To change "their way of thinking and basic fundamentals of the their beliefs" is an exercise in futility, IMO. You simply cannot change who a person is or any group of people's core beliefs. To fight this battle ("war") from the point of view of Christianity v Islam is a trap and is a no win argument for the reasons that Sigaba and others have pointed out.

The objective (again my opinion) is to find the groups or a demographic that already aspire to personal liberty and reject the subjugation of Islam. The Pew report that 98G references seems to identify possible demographic groups that are aspiring to that. Malala is a case in point and the women under the age of 25 may be the target assets. And the more I think about it, the better I like MR2s idea of a Phoenix Program Redux as a means.

Pete, to your point, I hadn't thought about it, but I don't recall NOW getting their panties in a knot over the subjugation of women under Islam either. Hmmmm!

I don't disagree with anything you said. I was simply contrasting Christianity and Islam. I agree it shouldn't the "war" shouldn't be fought that way. If the Muslims want to be Muslim, I have no wish to talk them out of it. But I do like, as I mentioned, working from the inside, such as using the Malala's in Islam to aide in making a change. Women can influence their children's way of thinking, and if the mindset of the children can be changed, there is hope.

As a woman (raised as Southern Baptist, but not subscribing to all of the beliefs), I have supported the womens' movement (also not subscribing to all of their beliefs) in things such as equal pay for equal work, but have never subscribed to the fact that men and women are equal. Both sexes have different strengths and weaknesses and excel at different things. In things in which we are equal, the business world for example, there should be equality. I am saying this to say that in this regard, I have always supported charities that assist women in this manner, helping them to become more self-sufficient, and in fighting mysogony in their cultures. There are many women's organizations fighting these atrocities, including under age marriage, the rape issues, female circumcision, and other utterly barbaric acts committed in the name of the Islamic religion.

[The Reaper]

I am not sure how you would go about changing religious beliefs without going after the believers. While we might want islam to go away, I see no sign that we could accomplish that, even if we all agreed on it.

Islam is not only a religion with primitive tenets, but it is also a theocratic political system, and the end requirement is that all non-believers convert, or face the sword.

The largest part of the islamic population is in Asia. At the same time, thus far, they seem to be the least militant. Maybe there is a way to create a schism, but even with that, we are going to have to fight a lot of people who hate us, our religion, our beliefs, and our way of life.

Make no mistake, once the muslims have a nuke, they will be looking for a way to employ it to cause us (the Western world, esp. Israel and the USA) maximum harm. It is allah's will and is undeniable.

Sad, but true.

TR

[Oldrotorhead]

I think the 10 Commandments did not say t"Thou shalt not kill But Thou shelt not murder. The wording has changed over 2 millia. I could be wrong but this is the way I interpret it, and my way is as good as most clergy.

[JHD]

Originally Posted by Oldrotorhead

I think the 10 Commandments did not say t"Thou shalt not kill But Thou shelt not murder. The wording has changed over 2 millia. I could be wrong but this is the way I interpret it, and my way is as good as most clergy.

I think you are correct, sir.

[Pete]

Muslims must fight terrorism

http://www.arabnews.com/news/466789

"In his article “Gulf between perception and reality of Muslims” (Oct.3), Aijaz Zaka Syed has once again echoed the feelings of all Muslims around the globe who feel bad about the way the entire community is being blamed for the wrongdoings of a few, who in the name of Islam are wreaking havoc around the world and giving a bad name to Islam and Muslims at large.
It is sad to hear and read reports about killings and violence perpetrated by deviant groups who claim to be waging a “holy war.”......."

I post this not so much for the story - but to read the story and then the comments.

[Trapper John]

Very, very enlightening post, Pete. Especially the comments. A couple of observations - (1) clear polarization of thoughts, (2) astounding ignorance of the tenets of Islam among Muslims, (3) noted the backlash from historical argument Sigaba cautioned about, (4) confirms to me that there are in fact assets to be exploited from within.

Some good intel there Bro, thanks.

[Stobey]

Please pardon the length of this post; but it is what I wrote to answer another Muslim individual elsewhere, who also did not seem too sure of just what his religion was all about. I am hoping that GR may have a look at this. Agree or disagree, it at least gives food for thought and serious study and reflection about what Islam "offers" to its adherents.

Answering Muslims -- my version:


Islam is not the truth! It's the best and longest-running con that Satan ever pulled. Unfortunately, its primary victims are Muslims themselves who will never know the love of a loving God. Jesus Christ did die; and he died for you as well as for me. Don't believe me? Ask, with a sincere heart, for God to show you the truth. He will.

And to those who question how God can be three persons... Well, in order to be able to fully comprehend this we would need to be God, which we are not. It is impossible for us, not for God. It is not within human understanding to be able to explain that mystery completely. That is why Jesus Christ referred to Himself as the Son of the Father. Jesus, by His divine nature was/is God; but in His human nature, was less than God. However, Jesus, in His humility, did not see equality with God, the Father, as something to be grasped at (unlike Lucifer/Satan). The closest I've ever heard anyone be able to explain this "Three-in-One" phenomenon is a nun on EWTN: Mother Angelica. The way she explained it was that we - each of us - is one human being; but we each have memory, intellect and will. Those are three separate and distinct parts of each of us; but they are not separate from us.

Jesus Christ is God. (“I and the Father are one.” “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” “Before Abraham was, I AM.”) [“I AM” being the name God told to Moses when Moses asked: “Who shall I say has sent me, Lord?”] No, Jesus was not in the least confused about just who and what He was. God came to us as a human so that His birth, His works, what He said, His death and His resurrection could be recorded in history. He paid the penalty for all the sins of humanity, since we would be unable to do so without suffering eternal death. God is love, but He is also just; and penalty for sin must be paid. God loved us so much that He took that penalty upon Himself so that we could once more be united with Him. Instead of arguing about whether or not Jesus Christ was crucified, we should be down on our knees with tears of humility and gratitude, thanking Him for His love and His sacrifice.

I know that it does not look like strength for God (as Jesus Christ) to die in such a horrible and ignominious manner, but He did. Jesus said that "No one takes my life. I have been given authority to lay down my life, and to take it up again." Therein is Christ's victory over Lucifer/Satan, over sin and over death; and believe me, it pissed Satan off no end. Lucifer/Satan hates God; but his arms are too short to box with God, so his plan was to get back at God by attacking what God loves – His children. That's us. The Almighty and ever-loving God does not want any of us lost to Him; but He gave us (as He gave the angels) free will - to love and serve Him, or to reject Him. Satan wants us - every one of us - to suffer as he does; and to lose the joy of life everlasting with a loving God.


Here are some ways you can tell that the one who Mohammed supposedly was quoting was not God, but Satan:

* Almighty God is the author and architect of life, not death. Pain, death and suffering only came to be because our first parents (Adam and Eve) were seduced by Satan to disobey God. It was Satan who was - and still is - a liar and "…a murderer from the beginning".

* Almighty God is not proud. He humbled Himself to become one of us in every way but sin; and died a horrible and shameful (in the eyes of man) death on a cross. Lucifer/Satan is proud. He wanted to be God; but as we all know, that was impossible. Lucifer/Satan was merely a creature of God, as we all are. So Lucifer/Satan, and approximately one third of the angels that God created, rebelled; and were cast out of heaven. (Hebrew: Satan – adversary.) Satan has used his main vice - pride - against humanity from the very beginning. Listen to what "allah" supposedly tells Mohammed: that Muslims (males) are the very best of creatures. What does that do? It engenders in Muslims (males particularly) a false sense of pride, which pushes them away from the true God.

When Jesus heard a few of His disciples arguing about who was the greatest among them, Jesus said: "Whoever among you who wishes to be the greatest among you must be the servant of you all." His message? Jesus (God) came to this Earth to serve, not to be served. Any of us who wish to be pleasing to God must imitate Christ's life on Earth, plain and simple; and that doesn't mean having a puffed-up ego thinking that "we are the best of creatures". That means acknowledging who and what we are, sinners - all of us, whose only salvation was made possible by the love and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. That means also acknowledging who and what God is – the Creator of all things, and our Heavenly Father.

* God does not deceive, nor can He be deceived. He knows everything that is in our hearts and minds. In Islam, one of the names for "allah" is "the great deceiver".

* God is love; and Jesus preached - and lived - God's love. Jesus did not incite any to war or to hate others. He told His apostles to go and preach the "Good News" of salvation; and if any town did not want to hear the message, to "Shake the dust of that town from their sandals so that it would be a testament unto them." Islam - with its concept of "jihad" - incites Muslims to hate the "infidels"; and to "make war against them until all proclaim that there is no god but allah and Mohammed is his messenger".

* God said to mankind: "Two ways are set before you, O man: the way of life and the way of death. Therefore choose life." (One that I would recommend the pro-abortionists take heed.) Mohammed tells us that "there is no greater glory than to slay and to be slain for allah".

* God the Father’s heaven is one where we enjoy eternity with our Creator. This is purely spiritual. Mohammed's view of eternity is one that appeals only to the carnal lusts of man. Does that sound like what the True God would promise to those who love and serve Him? Nope. Sounds like another con from the greatest con-artist ever known: Satan. Sorry guys. There will not be 72 virgins awaiting your beck and call; and no eternal erections either.


Are you getting the idea? If you still don't believe me, read the Quran and haddiths. Then start reading the Bible. Above all, ask God, with a sincere and humble heart, to show you the truth. Jesus said that: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I'll leave you with that thought.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Stobey

Entire post.

Home run.

[PRB]

The Ahmadiyya sect is far from mainstream Islam and is considered non Muslim by Sunni's and Shia alike.......their love and peace message without the other elements of Islam violate the basic creed.
Their founder was a bit off his rocker.
If any modification of Islamic behavior and outlook is to take any real hold it will have to be a Sunni group or individual.

[Stobey]

Originally Posted by Dusty

Home run.

Thank you, Dusty. I'm No.2 - I try harder.

[Oldrotorhead]

Here is a list of different sects/ divisions of Islam and a one line overview of each.
The Sufi are anothergroup that is as much mystic as Islam and they pretty much get along with most other religions. On the other hand Wahabbi's dislike everyone and I think they don't even like themselves very much.



www.real-islam.org


Name of the Sect


Basic Belief Distinguishing
it from Others

1.

Jarudiyah

Followers of Abu'l-Jarud, They believe Prophet (pbuh) designated Ali (ra) as the Imam by his characteristics but not by name.


2.

Sulaimaniah / Jaririyah

Followers of Sulaiman ibn-Jarir al-Zaidi, They believed Imamat was a matter of conference and could be confirmed by two best Muslims.

3.

Butriyah / Hurariyah

They did not dispute the Khilafat of Uthman, neither they attack him nor praise him.


4.

Yaqubiyya

They accepted the Khilafat of Abu Bakr and Umar, but did not reject those who rejected these Khulafaa. They also believed that Muslim committers of Major sins will be in hell fire forever.

5.

Hanafiyah

Followers of the Imammate of Muhammad ibn-al-Hanifah. They believe that Allah might have had a beginning.


6.

Karibiyah

They believed that Imam Muhammad ibn-al-Hanifah is not dead and is the Imam Ghaib (in disappearance) and the expected Mahdi.

7.

Kamiliyah

Followers of abu-Kamil. They believed companions to be heretic because they forsook their allegiance to Ali and condemn Ali for ceasing to fight them. They believed in the returning of the dead before the Day of Resurrection and that Satan is right in preferring fire to clay.


8.

Muhammadiyyah / Mughairiyah

Followers of Muhammad ibn-'Abdullah ibn-al-Hassan. They do not believe that Imam Muhammad ibn-'Abdullah died and that he is Imam Ghaib and awaited Mahdi.

9.

Baqiriyah

Followers of Muhammad ibn-'Ali al-Baqir. They believe him to be the Imam Ghaib and expected Mahdi.


10.

Nadisiyah

They believe that those who consider themselves better than anyone else are Kafirs (disbelievers).

11.

Sha'iyah

They believe that the one who has recited La Ilaha Il-Allah (There is none worthy of worship except Allah), whatever she or he does, will never be punished.


12.

Ammaliyah

They believe that faith for one is what he/she sincerely practices.

13.

Ismailiyah

They believe in the continuity of Imammate among the descendants of Ismail ibn-Ja'far.


14.

Musawiyah / Mamturah

They believe Musa ibn-Ja'far to be the Imam Ghaib and expected Mahdi.

15.

Mubarikiyah

They believe in the continuity of Imammate among the descendants of Muhammad ibn-Ismail ibn-Ja'far.


16.

Kathiyah / Ithn 'Ashariya (the Twelvers)

They believe that expected Mahdi will be the twelveth Imam among the descendants of 'Ali ibn-abi-Talib.

17.

Hashamiya / Taraqibiyah

They Predicate a body to Allah and also allege Prophet (pbuh) of disobedience to Allah.


18.

Zarariyah

They believed that Allah did not live nor had any attributes till He created for Himself life and His attributes.

19.

Younasiyah

Followers of Younas ibn-'Abd-al-Rahman al-Kummi. They believe that Allah is borne by bearers of His Throne, though He is stronger than they.

20.

Shaitaniyah / Shireekiyah


They believed in the view that deeds of servants of Allah are substances; and a servant of Allah can really produce a substance.

21.

Azraqiah

Followers of Nafi ibn-al-Azraq. They do not believe in the good dreams and vision and claim that all forms of revelation has ended.


22.


Najadat


Followers of Najdah ibn-'Amir al-Hanafi. They abolished the punishment for drinking wine also they believed that sinners of this sect would not be treated in hellfire but some other place before allowed in paradise.

23.


Sufriyah


Followers of Ziyad ibn-al-Asfar. They believed that sinners are in fact polytheists.


24.


Ajaridah


Followers of Abd-al-Karim ibn-Ajrad. They believed that a child should be called to Islam after it has attained maturity. Also they believed booty of war to be unlawful till the owner is killed.

25.


Khazimiyah


They believe Allah loves men of all faiths even if one has been disbeliever most of his life.


26.


Shuaibiyah / Hujjatiyah


They believe that what Allah desires does happen no matter what and what does not happen it means Allah desires it not.

27.


Khalafiyah


Followers of Khalaf. They do not believe in fighting except under the leadership of an Imam.


28.


Ma'lumiyah / Majhuliyah


They believed that whoever did not recognize Allah by all His names was ignorant of Him and anyone ignorant of Him was a disbeliever.

29.


Saltiyah


Followers of Salt ibn-Uthman. They believed in the conversion of adults only and if father has converted to Islam children were considered disbeliever till they reach maturity.


30.


Hamziyah


Followers of Hamza ibn-Akrak. They believe that children of polythiests are condemned to hell.

31.


Tha'libiyah


Followers of Tha'labah ibn-Mashkan. They believe that parents remain guardian over their children of any age until children make it clear to parents that they are turning away from truth.


32.


Ma'badiyah


They did not believe in taking or giving alms from or to slaves.

33.


Akhnasiyah


They do not believe in waging a war except in defense or when the opponent is known personally.


34.


Shaibaniyah / Mashbiyah


Followers of Shaiban ibn-Salamah al-Khariji. They believe Allah resembles His creatures.

[Oldrotorhead]

Page 2

35.

Rashidiyah

They believe that land watered by springs, canals or flowing rivers should pay half the Zakat (Tithe), while land watered by rain only should pay the full Zakat.


36.

Mukarramiyah / Tehmiyah

Followers of abu-Mukarram. They believe that ignorance constitutes as disbelief. Also that Allah enmity or friendship depends upon the state of a persons belief at his death.

37.

Ibadiyah / Af'aliyah

Consider Abdullah ibn-Ibad as their Imam. They believe in doing good deeds without the intention of pleasing Allah.


38.

Hafsiyah

Consider Hafs ibn-abi-l-Mikdam as their Imam. They believe that only knowing Allah frees one from polytheism

39.

Harithiya

Followers of Harith ibn-Mazid al-Ibadi. They believe that the ability precedes the deeds.


40.

Ashab Ta'ah

They believe that Allah can send a prophet without giving him any sign to prove his prophecy.

41.

Shabibiyah / Salihiyah

Followers of Shabib ibn-Yazid al-Shaibani. They believe in the Imamate of a woman named Ghazalah.


42.

Wasiliyah

Followers of Wasil ibn-'Ata al-Ghazza. They believe that those who commit major sins will be punished in hell but still remain believers.

43.

'Amriyah

Followers of 'Amr ibn-Ubaid ibn-Bab. They reject the legal testimony of people from supporters of either side of the battle of Camel.


44.

Hudhailiyah / Faniya

Followers of abu-al-Hudhail Muhammad ibn-al-Hudhail. They believe that both Hell and Paradise will perish and that preordination of Allah can cease, at which time Allah will no longer be omnipotent.

45.

Nazzamiyah

Followers of abu-Ishaq Ibrahim ibn-Saiyar. They do not believe in the miraculous nature of the Holy Quran nor do they believe the miracles of Holy Prophet (pbuh) like splitting the moon.


46.

Mu'ammariyah

They Believe that Allah neither creates life nor death but it is an act of the nature of living body.

47.

Bashriyah

Followers of Bashr ibn-al-Mu'tamir. They believe that Allah may forgive a man his sins and may change His mind about this forgiveness and punish him if he is disobedient again.


48.

Hishamiyah

Followers of Hisham ibn-'Amr al-Futi. They believe that if a Muslim community come to consensus it need an Imam and if it rebels and kills its Imam, no one should be chosen an Imam during a rebellion.

49.

Murdariyah

Followers of Isa ibn-Sabih. They believe that staying in close communication with the Sultan (ruler) makes one unbeliever.


50.

Ja'friyah

Followers of Ja'far ibn-Harb and Ja'far ibn-Mubashshir. They believe that drinking raw wine is not punishable and that punishment of hell could be inferred by a mental process.

51.

Iskafiyah

Followers of Muhammad ibn-Abdallah al-Iskafi. They believe that Allah has power to oppress children and madmen but not those who have their full senses.


52.

Thamamiyah

Followers of Thamamah ibn-Ashras al-Numairi. They believe that he whom Allah does not compel to know Him, is not compelled to know and is classed with animals who are not responsible.

53.

Jahiziayh

Followers of 'Amr ibn-Bahr al-Jahiz. They believe that Allah is able to create a thing but unable to annihilate it.


54.

Shahhamiyah / Sifatiyah

Followers of abu-Yaqub al-Shahham. They everything determined is determined by two determiners, one the Creator and the other acquirer.

55.

Khaiyatiyah / Makhluqiyah

Followers of abu-al-Husain al-Khaiyat. They believe that everything non-existant is a body before it appears, like man before it is born is a body in non-existance. Also that every attribute becomes existant when it makes its appearance.


56.

Ka'biyah

Followers of abu-Qasim Abdullah ibn-Ahmad ibn-Mahmud al-Banahi known as al-Ka'bi. They believe that Allah does not see Himself nor anyone else except in the sense that He knows Himself and others.

57.

Jubbaiyah

Followers of abu-'Ali al-Jubbai. They believe that Allah obeys His servants when He fulfill their wish


58.

Bahshamiyah

Followers of abu-Hashim. They believe that one who desires to do a bad deed, though may not do it, commits infidelity and deserves punishment.

59.

Ibriyah.

They believe that Holy Prophet (pbuh) was a wise man but not a prophet.


60.

Muhkamiyah

They believe that God has no control over His creations.

61.

Qabariyya

They do not believe in the punishment of grave.


62.

Hujjatiya

They do not believe in the punishment for deeds on the grounds that because everything is determined so whatever one does s/he is not responsible for it.

63.

Fikriyya

They believe that doing Dhikr and Fikr (Remembering and thinking about Allah) is better than worship.


64.

'Aliviyah / Ajariyah

They believe that Hadhrat Ali share prophethood with Muhammad (pbuh).

65.

Tanasikhiya

They believe in the re-incarnation of soul.


66.

Raji'yah

They believe that Hadhrat Ali ibn-abi-Talib will return to this world.

67.

Ahadiyah

They believe in the Fardh (obligations) in faith but deny the sunnah.


68.

Radeediyah

They believe that this world will live forever.

69.

Satbiriyah

They do not believe in the acceptance of repentance.


70.

Lafziyah

They believe that Quran is not the word of God but only its meaning and essence is the word of God. Words of Quran are just the words of narrator.

71.

Ashariyah

The believe that Qiyas (taking a guess) is wrong and amounts to disbelief.


72.

Bada'iyah

They believe that obedience to Ameer is obligatory no matter what he commands.

[PRB]

Lol.
They have almost as many sects as Christianity.
Some of those still purport to be mainstream Sunni but not all.
If reform doesn't come from a Sunni it doesn't come at all.

[T-Rock]

The Sufi are another group that is as much mystic as Islam and they pretty much get along with most other religions.

I wouldn’t be so sure of that. Although they are hailed by the west as peaceful mystics who believe jihad is a spiritual quest, they all aren’t “peace-loving, meditative seekers of the divine.” One should study the Sufi Jihadi squadrons of Shaykh Abd al-Qadir al-Gilani, or the writings of Al-Ghazali…

Al—Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim, and follower of the Shafi'i school of Islamic jurisprudence, wrote this about jihad war and the treatment of the vanquished non—Muslim dhimmi peoples, in the Wadjiz: [4]

[O]ne must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year...one may use a catapult against them [non—Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them...If a person of the Ahl� al—Kitab [People of The Book — primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked...One may cut down their trees...One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide...they may steal as much food as they need...

[T]he dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle...Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [poll tax on non—Muslims]...on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [the dhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]... They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells...their houses may not be higher than the Muslim's, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle [—work] is of wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear [an identifying] patch [on their clothing], even women, and even in the [public] baths...[dhimmis] must hold their tongue...

...the Caliph of Baghdad, al—Muqtadi [1075—1094], had given power to his vizier, Abu Shuja... [who] imposed that each male Jew should wear a yellow badge on his headgear. This was one distinctive sign on the head and the other was on the neck— a piece of lead of the weight of a silver dinar hanging round the neck of every Jew and inscribed with the word dhimmi to signify that the Jew had to pay poll—tax. Jews also had to wear girdles round their wastes. Abu Shuja further imposed two signs on Jewish women. They had to wear a black and a red shoe, and each woman had to have a small brass bell on her neck or shoe, which would tinkle and thus announce the separation of Jewish from Gentile [Muslim] women. He assigned cruel Muslim men to spy upon Jewish women, in order to oppress them with all kinds of curses, humiliation, and spite. The Gentile population used to mock all the Jews, and the mob and their children used to beat up the Jews in all the streets of Baghdad...When a Jew died, who had not paid up the poll—tax [jizya] to the full and was in debt for a small or large amount, the Gentiles did not permit burial until the poll—tax was paid. If the deceased left nothing of value, the Gentiles demanded that other Jews should, with their own money, meet the debt owed by the deceased in poll—tax; otherwise they [threatened] they would burn the body.

> http://www.americanthinker.com/print...ufi_jihad.html

[Hacksaw]

So we have 1 female out of 1.6 billion people, if that's not success I do not know what is. I apologize for the sarcasim, however, using this one girl as an example of what might be is on the same level as discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Illitiacy in the muslim world is high....very high, so we should get all of them literate first right? No wait, let's build the schools needed to educate them so they can read. Wait a minute, we need to build them roads so they can get to the schools. Oh, before that let's build some water treatment plants so they have clean water which will make them healthy enough to go to school to learn to read so that then we can tell them that the Koran is wrong and they should respect women as the westerners do. Forgive my skepticisim, after 10 years and 14 rotations to Iraq and Afghanistan I believe I have seen every conceivable idea on how we get them to stop killing every damn thing that is not a muslim (my mistake, we need to include killing muslims) and nothing I have witnessed has even remotely worked. I'm all for undermining islam, however, trying to do that with their females, in my opinion, ain't gonna happen unless we're talking about sterilizing. Please forgive the spelling mistakes.