On the Run

[steel_eel]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

s_e, good with the hardware. Don't forget to bring a way to get clean water to drink and some emergency food. Even water that looks clean can put you on your ass for a while.

Thank you, sir.
I was under the assumption that there was food and water in the B/O bag.
I do have a butt pack that has E-rations and a katadyn water purification kit, but chose not to include them in my OP.

I love this thread and I love rock drills. It really opens the mind up if you are daring enough to let someone constructively criticize you.

[Old Dog New Trick]

I got this through a friend and thought it to be somewhat important to this thread. For those of you like myself that have to E&E from urban areas.

All:

Very interesting technology.

Exercise one: If you look at the picture and figure that you are part of a survey team, you will look up high on the balcony. Amongst those watching the crowd, find the two Sikh gentlemen. One with a purple turban and the other with a black turban. They are not doing anything wrong, just enjoying the view along with some of their co workers.

Now click View All so that it takes you back out again.

Exercise two: Look down at the lower right corner and find the male bike rider wearing a bright red jersey. Look at all of the shenanigans around him. Torsos without heads. Jeans with nothing above them.

Exercise three: Look in the windows in the nearest building to the right. Find the "Solidarity" poster. OpSec. Remember your computer screen angles and window angles onto your desk top computer, etc...

This picture was taken with a 70,000 x 30,000 pixel camera (2100 Mega Pixels.) These cameras are not sold to the public and are being installed in strategic locations. The camera can identify a face among a multitude of people. Place your computer's cursor in the mass of people and double-click a couple times (or 'finger-spread' on a device.) Scary sharp!!


http://www.gigapixel.com/mobile/?id=79995

Once you get to the link above you can move around and zoom (super zoom) or zoom out. In one spot down low to the left of the bicycle rider you can also find a guy holding a smartphone. I'd say if you are watching realtime you could see him dial a number just using thumb movements on a known device.

Have fun! Orwell would not approve.

[Paslode]

Originally Posted by Old Dog New Trick

I got this through a friend and thought it to be somewhat important to this thread. For those of you like myself that have to E&E from urban areas.

All:

Very interesting technology.

Exercise one: If you look at the picture and figure that you are part of a survey team, you will look up high on the balcony. Amongst those watching the crowd, find the two Sikh gentlemen. One with a purple turban and the other with a black turban. They are not doing anything wrong, just enjoying the view along with some of their co workers.

Now click View All so that it takes you back out again.

Exercise two: Look down at the lower right corner and find the male bike rider wearing a bright red jersey. Look at all of the shenanigans around him. Torsos without heads. Jeans with nothing above them.

Exercise three: Look in the windows in the nearest building to the right. Find the "Solidarity" poster. OpSec. Remember your computer screen angles and window angles onto your desk top computer, etc...

This picture was taken with a 70,000 x 30,000 pixel camera (2100 Mega Pixels.) These cameras are not sold to the public and are being installed in strategic locations. The camera can identify a face among a multitude of people. Place your computer's cursor in the mass of people and double-click a couple times (or 'finger-spread' on a device.) Scary sharp!!


http://www.gigapixel.com/mobile/?id=79995

Once you get to the link above you can move around and zoom (super zoom) or zoom out. In one spot down low to the left of the bicycle rider you can also find a guy holding a smartphone. I'd say if you are watching realtime you could see him dial a number just using thumb movements on a known device.

Have fun! Orwell would not approve.

There are a couple glitches I found.

The most interesting is there is a group of Arab looking people with knit head coverings, most are blue, a couple are black and there are (2) blue with white stripe mid right of the Hamilton Street light pole. One of the men with the Blue knit with white strip is wearing glasses. 2 people down from him is a man with a black hockey shirt with half his afro missing. If his Afro were in tact you would only see partial faces of the women behind him. And directly to the man in the blacks right is a block were the images remain blurred no matter what the magnification.


That weird! maybe some new Xray technology or maybe Photoshop

[The Reaper]

Pas, cut fences leave a clear trail and azimuth. I learned that when I started to do it one night in Central America and my Team Sergeant schooled me.

I had a camping axe or hatchet and a small set of bolt cutters on my list. I might be able to replace the bolt cutters with a good set of fence pliers, now that you mention it, though I would lose the ability to cut padlocks off. Everything is a compromise.

Not sure the vehicles would flood the streets to be a good diversion, or that the LEOs would all be there, instead of looking after their own families, but I suppose that you could use it for that.

Amen on the spring or fall. I hate humping a ruck in the summer.


steel, there is food and water (or your selection) in the BoB, you were citing items, so I thought that was your complete list. Freeze-dried is expensive and requires water, but in this case, I think at least a few days worth would be a good idea. Maybe a stripped MRE or two with some spare desserts and accessory packs would be nice. Some trail mix and some power bars for energy while on the move. And some non-perishable carbs to go with any game or fish you might snag. I like dehydrated pre-cooked rice or some beans. Hot sauce and pepper can help hide the flavor of something you are tired of or is less than palatable.


ODNT, actually, I think it is damn near impossible to hide these days, if they want you badly enough. They got Osama, the Unibomber, Tim McVeigh, and Eric Rudolph. Eventually, we would all make a mistake and get picked up by either a dedicated asset, or just a chance contact. I would just hope that they had higher priority targets, especially for their aerial surveillance assets.


I would also remind everyone of an earlier post on walking shoes or boots. If you are at worek when somethign happens, getting home could be a challenge if you have to hoof it and are wearing something less than practical footwear. Maybe keep a gym bag at work or in your car with water bottles, some snacks, a pair of walking shoes or low boots, spare socks, a towel, a can of OC spray, etc. That might come in very handy and not look particularly out of place.

TR

[Paslode]

*delete*

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

I have researched it before and want to reload some 308 subsonics. Historically the issue has been small amounts of powder can cause reliably issues with ignition. A few years ago a powder called trail boss came out for cowboy action shooters. Without getting into details it seems to be great for subsonic loads. 9-11 grains seem to be good for subsonics in .308 and since it has a high capacity for bang it fills the case well.

I am going to reload some for my .308 just for kicks, but if you are a reloader this might be a good option for you to load and keep around.

Good luck.

We were looking for subsonic .308 a few years back, and could not find a single brand that was consistently reliable, safe, and accurate.

That is a lot of case capacity to try and fill with something other than powder.

TR

[Ape Man]

When I started to think about TR's scenario in terms of specific plan suited to my area and my likely point of travel instead of just being a general idea, it quickly became clear that gear is the least of my concerns. What I am really having a problem with is the tactics/skills that I would use in a hypothetical scenario.

If it is not too off topic of the subject of guns, let me throw one of my problems out there.

The road that I live on runs between two fairly major roads by rural standards. One in a upland road, the other runs along a river. Let us say that the bad guys have a list names on my street that they want to take in. Let us say that they have a blocking force along the river and the door kicking force starts at the upland road and works its way down my road taking people in. Let us say that this all goes down at 4 AM (because that is when I would do it if I wanted bring a bunch of people in).

If I get TR's allotted 5 minutes of warning, the obvious thing for me to do in run out my back door where I have a mile straight of uninterrupted woods. The problem I have is how do I navigate in those woods?

When I was young, I did a lot of walking around in fields and light woods in the dark (I was a weird kid). I had a lot better night vision back then but even so the deep wood was too dark for me to effectively navigate. Even though I knew the woods well, there is next to no light under a reasonably heavy canopy. And with next to no light, you can get lost in a familiar setting same as if you were blindfolded.

In darkness that deep, it can be hard to line up your compass with a point far enough ahead to do you any good. If you had another person with you that you could send ahead with a glow stick, you could use the bounding method.

Would a glow stick be too much of a risk? How would you navigate if you were by yourself?

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Ape Man

When I started to think about TR's scenario in terms of specific plan suited to my area and my likely point of travel instead of just being a general idea, it quickly became clear that gear is the least of my concerns. What I am really having a problem with is the tactics/skills that I would use in a hypothetical scenario.

If it is not too off topic of the subject of guns, let me throw one of my problems out there.

The road that I live on runs between two fairly major roads by rural standards. One in a upland road, the other runs along a river. Let us say that the bad guys have a list names on my street that they want to take in. Let us say that they have a blocking force along the river and the door kicking force starts at the upland road and works its way down my road taking people in. Let us say that this all goes down at 4 AM (because that is when I would do it if I wanted bring a bunch of people in).

If I get TR's allotted 5 minutes of warning, the obvious thing for me to do in run out my back door where I have a mile straight of uninterrupted woods. The problem I have is how do I navigate in those woods?

When I was young, I did a lot of walking around in fields and light woods in the dark (I was a weird kid). I had a lot better night vision back then but even so the deep wood was too dark for me to effectively navigate. Even though I knew the woods well, there is next to no light under a reasonably heavy canopy. And with next to no light, you can get lost in a familiar setting same as if you were blindfolded.

In darkness that deep, it can be hard to line up your compass with a point far enough ahead to do you any good. If you had another person with you that you could send ahead with a glow stick, you could use the bounding method.

Would a glow stick be too much of a risk? How would you navigate if you were by yourself?

If there is no trail through the woods, I would pick an azimuth and set it on a compass that glowed. I would know the general pace count and would try to stay on azimuth while moving fast.

Does it matter if you come out a couple of hundred meters to either side of your desired exit point? If not, I would consider running it on a general heading and move fast.

You could also terrain associate and follow a stream or depression through the woods.

What is on the other side of the woods and to either side? See "handrails" and "backstops" in land nav.

I would not use a regular or hi-intensity glow stick to follwo someone. A well-charged pair of ranger eyes on the back of a hat or ruck should be plenty to follow and will not give away your position anywhere near as badly as a glow stick.

NVGs or, if absolutely necessary, a red LED light could be used, but I don't personally think you need it. You can also get luminous thumbtacks and markers to mark your route, but for a mile, I can't see using one just to cross the woods. You aren't in a triple canopy jungle or something really thick, are you?

A good orienteering class or two might be helpful.

Hope that helps.

TR

[koz]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

I have researched it before and want to reload some 308 subsonics. Historically the issue has been small amounts of powder can cause reliably issues with ignition. A few years ago a powder called trail boss came out for cowboy action shooters. Without getting into details it seems to be great for subsonic loads. 9-11 grains seem to be good for subsonics in .308 and since it has a high capacity for bang it fills the case well.

I am going to reload some for my .308 just for kicks, but if you are a reloader this might be a good option for you to load and keep around.

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Good luck.

We were looking for subsonic .308 a few years back, and could not find a single brand that was consistently reliable, safe, and accurate.

That is a lot of case capacity to try and fill with something other than powder.

TR

IMR Trail Boss will reliably keep a 180-190 gr .30 bullet subsonic and it's safe. There are few examples of SEE with TB. I use 10.7 gr with a Hornady 180gr BTSP Interbond. That's with a 18" barrel and suppressor. I built the load at 100F day and it's right about 50fps below supersonic velocity. Quick load shows that load at supersonic velocity, but I've used a Magnetospeed chrono (I've had it compared to an Oheler 85 and it was pretty accurate) and I was right at 1075fps. That load gives a 72% fill volume and 100% burn. I have opened up the flash holes in the past but stopped and haven't seen any difference.

Trail boss is a donut shaped powder that has a huge volume. Loads up to 338LM have been tested using it successfully. Subsonic drag profiles are very different than supersonic profiles. Basically velocity loss doesn't occur as fast as a supersonic round.


If you load subs, make sure you test without a suppressor to ensure you don't have key-holes @100 or you risk getting a baffle strike. I've popped a few animals with subs. Just consider you're basically shooting a 45ACP so aim accordingly.

[PSM]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Pat, I am of the same mindset, I would prefer to stay at home, but unless your plan is to do the "die in place" routine, it never hurts to have a contingency to hit the trail. You get my point. You can't take it all, or even most of it very far. I know where I would go if flushed, and I hope you do too. Never hurts to check out some maps and maybe visit a few points that you found of interest.

“Omnia mea mecum porto”

TR

Actually, I'm pretty familiar with every route out except the river route that I mentioned. While it is the most convenient course, eliminating the need to carry water, it is also the most obvious to the bad guys. Not knowing what the actual threat is limits this scenario a bit. If it's renegade gangs from CA looting their way East, I'd more than likely stay near the river. If it's a government entity with UAVs, I'd head to the mountains and look for mine shafts (marked on topos) to hunker down in.

While you gave us 5 minutes to "Get out of Dodge", you didn't say that comms are down and arranging meets at RPs is out of the question, so I still may be able to meet up with TS.

Pat

[Paslode]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Pas, cut fences leave a clear trail and azimuth. I learned that when I started to do it one night in Central America and my Team Sergeant schooled me.

I had a camping axe or hatchet and a small set of bolt cutters on my list. I might be able to replace the bolt cutters with a good set of fence pliers, now that you mention it, though I would lose the ability to cut padlocks off. Everything is a compromise.

Not sure the vehicles would flood the streets to be a good diversion, or that the LEOs would all be there, instead of looking after their own families, but I suppose that you could use it for that.

Amen on the spring or fall. I hate humping a ruck in the summer.

Good tip on leaving a trail with cut fence, it never crossed my mind!

Maybe better way of putting the traffic distraction, those in cars in my immediate AO in many cases are themselves going to be distracted or focused straight ahead and unaware of what is going on around them.

For example late last month while at soccer practice with my daughter, I heard a train crossing the track as usual, then I heard a car accelerating down the road, then I heard lots of sirens for various directions, then I heard cars screech to a stop and then I just heard the train. It was out of the ordinary

All that happened within 200m of the building we were in, and out of about 25 parents there I was the only person that walked out the open overhead door to see what was going on......Oodles and gobs of police with long guns and pistols drawn had surrounded a small parking lot on the opposite side of the street.

It should be noted that a several kids took notice and peeked out to see what all the ruckus was all about.

After a bit I walked back in and told one of the Dads what was going on. He walked back out with me, I pointed out the police and their guns.....are you sure they have their guns out? How can you tell?

Based on that experience the odds were that 1 in 25 would recognize a potential threat and avoid it, and that 24 in 25 would be distracted and susceptible to threats.

If you include all the kids, you are talking 60-75 people with only one person taking any real notice of the situation.

[dollarbill]

I'd grab every weapon the wife and myself own. The Rem 870 with 4 boxes of bird shot, 2 boxes of 00 and 2 boxes of slugs. Springfield 40xd and the wife has a Tarus Millennium, both have 10 loaded mags, and my MK3 Spec Plus. Fishing poles and tacklebox would also be gathered. Also a small AM/FM Radio with spare 9 volt battery. I'd get the dog (German Shepherd,Rot,Pointer mix. Yeap she's a mutt) and two fully charged 12 volt car batteries. I'd put the batteries and other items on a plastic snow sled that's kept in the back yard.. The wife, dog and myself would head out the back door and pull the batteries 250 yards down a slight hill through the flood plan area(wooded area) to the White River. This is where I keep the flat stern canoe with a 45# trolling motor. We would head up river away from Indianapolis, paddling when needed, using the motor to cover ground quickly. The river is know for catfish and small mouth. Deer are also found along the banks. Also, by heading away from the city we quickly reach farm land to provide more cover and food opportunities.

Passing thought. May also try to contact some farmers along the way to increase my fighting size and survivability. This would depend on the situation.

[PSM]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

You can't take it all, or even most of it very far.

[Y]ou can almost always circle around back onto your preferred route.

I almost missed that!

Like Surf n Turf, I've always thought about "forward" caching. With only 5 minutes notice, out the door, you are heading in a known (to you) direction determined at the time of the notification. Taking everything you have for the first few miles is not that hard. Taking a break and analyzing your situation and determining a plan of action, you can then decide what you need to cache, at your present location, and what you need to carry forward. After the threat has lessened, and if needed, you can always return to the "hasty cache" and retrieve what is needed.

Pat

[koz]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

Thanks. I have a very high quality bolt action and a M1A aka M-14. I would like to develop loads for both. What is max range on subsonics before drop off gets to bad in your opinion? BTW the twist on the rifles are 1:10 and 1:11. Will the 180 or 190 stabilize at those velocities with those twists or will I have to drop my bullet weight? Also did you use regular or magnum primers?

My barrels all 1:11.25 and I went with the 180s. It was just more accurate. With the 1:10, you should be able to go to the 190s. I'd try both and if they're not keyholing, then you will be good with a suppressor.

I did not use magnum primers, Win Large Rifle.

As far as max range, you can get pretty far out, but it becomes a "howitzer" shot. I don't have my notes in front of me but the velocity loss was less than you'd think. I was fine hitting plates @ 300m but if the winds were blowing, it took a lot of guess work (the round was often very high above the ground). I've witnessed guys shoot out to 900m with 338 subsonics.

[Beef]

Here's my take on the some of the long guns: bring what you need for a firefight. AR's or M-4s. Appropriate ammo. If you're on the run, do you want to be dropping deer and other game that need more than a .22 to bring down? You can't carry a lot of unpreserved meat, so you'll only cut off pretty much what you'll cook and eat in the very near future. And you'll leave a trail of slaughtered deer/elk, etc. Much like the cut barbed wire. If you stick to small game, you can carry it for little while until you can prepare it if necessary and then hide the remains or scatter them to look like a natural demise. I'd go with my AR with 180 round in mags/stripper clips as some of you described above and my Sig P226 with 3 15 round mags. Since I don't have a .22 conversion kit ( but getting one as a result of this thread, thanks TR!) I'd also take my trusty Colt Woodsman and a box of 50 rounds.

As far as food goes, I think that stuff like Carbo-Plex and protein supplements deserve some attention. While not tasty, they can fill the bill for fuel for the machine. While not totally depending on those, in addition to some regular light weight food, you should have a good base of that.

For those of you who have little field experience, go backpacking the "Ray Way." Ray Jardine has perfected an ultralight lifestyle of minimalist backpacking that is very efficient, once you get the system and techniques down. Small, fast and light.

Snickers bars were mentioned above. LOL! When I cross trained as an 18C in 1981, one of the Demo committee guys ONLY ate Snickers in the field. Six a day. He froze them, wrapped them in pairs in multiple layers on aluminum foil and froze them some more. Then rolled them in a doubled poncho liner. Could go 5 days in the summer and much longer in the fall and winter. The rest of the committee backed him up. He always said, "Man cannot live by Snickers alone! You gotta have coffee!"

My long-winded .01