On the Run

[The_Mentalist]

Ok, getting in on this one late but...

Grab the AR in its case. I keep 12 loaded mags in the case which gives me 360 rounds. My 1911 immediately goes on the hip. Bug out bag will have another 10 loaded mags for the AR and 500 rounds for the 1911. That give me a total of 660 rounds for the AR and 529 rounds (counting the mag in, 2spares on the hip and one round in the pipe) for the 1911.

The 5.56 will take any game in North America. So, we will be fed. It is small enough to take rabbits and powerful enough for moose, elk and if you put a couple. Rounds in, even buffalo. It is really the perfect bug out weapon of our time.

However, my buyout situation in reality is much different. I drive a semi and haul food products. Most likely, I will get notification with 40K pounds of chicken in the trailer or like now, 38K of potatoes. Fuel on board will allow for 1000 miles wherever I want to go(but will go shorter distance to have the engine fuel available to put into the reefer unit). I have contacts throughout he country as well as set locations that I have planned based on where I happen to be at the time. No matter where I happen to be, 200 miles/3.5 hrs will be my max driving for safe harbor.

In the truck, I happen to have my 1911 (stays on my hip unless in Cali or OR) with 1K rounds, my primary AR with 1500 rounds (660 already loaded in mags) and my .308 Savage with 250 rounds. We carry enough food (not counting load) for 2 weeks and at least 5 gallons of water on top of whatever we have to drink otherwise. CB, satcom and internet access all available in the truck (satcom is only direct to company) along with cell phone. We have every thing in the truck you would have at home except a shower. So, we are in our bug out vehicle constantly. And yes, in a SHTF scenario I would not shy away from stealing my load to provide food or stealing any one else's load if it became necessary. Most likely, I would get in touch with some other trucker friends and we would combine resources. Build a compound out of trailers with he tractors (houses) in the center.

[The_Mentalist]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

You would need another upper for 5.56, with the bolt carrier and charging handle. At that point, you are within a couple of pounds of humping two complete carbines.

A .22LR conversion unit uses the .223/5.56 barrel for the bullet to engage the rifling. The 7.62 upper would not work for that system.

I suppose a case could be made for a .308 carbine, and a dedicated .22LR upper, but again, the upper with conversion unit and CH probably weighs a lot more than a .22LR pistol and probably almost as much as a 10/22 Ruger.

Your call, looks gimmicky to me.

TR

Not to mention that if you are shooting .22 through a .223 barrel, it will be inaccurate as hell. The bullet does not properly engage the rifling and the twist rate is too slow. Just stick with the 5.56/.223 and you can do whatever you would need.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by The_Mentalist

Not to mention that if you are shooting .22 through a .223 barrel, it will be inaccurate as hell. The bullet does not properly engage the rifling and the twist rate is too slow. Just stick with the 5.56/.223 and you can do whatever you would need.

Not sure how many times you have tried this, but I have four conversions and have run them on at least a dozen uppers, including my issue weapon.

It is not a BR-50 rifle, but it will do the job for putting down varmints, collecting small game at reasonable ranges, or eliminating sentry animals. You just need to practice with it and learn the capabilities and limitations of the system before using it to stay alive.

The .22LR bullets mic the same diameter and recovered bullets show full rifling engagement, by my tools.

The twist is much faster with a .223/5.56, particularly with the newer 1x7" and 1x9" rifles. The older 1x12" and 1x14" are not far off the preferred .22LR twist rate. That difference is why dedicated uppers are available with the optimal twist rifling for precision work.

As far as the Glock conversions, if they will run reliably with just a barrel change, that could have merit, especially if you wanted to collect ammo along the way, and anticipated finding lots of 9x19. I think the breech faces are slightly different between the 9x19 and .40 S&W barrels, maybe the extractor keeps it close enough to center for the firing pin to reliably ignite the primer.

As with everything else, try before you buy, if you can, and make sure you know what it will do before betting your life on it.

TR

[The_Mentalist]

Not done a 22 conversion, but from the friends that I have that have done it, they report a greatly reduced accuracy as compared to a dedicated 22. However, they say it is good enough to hit 4" circles at 50 yards. Although this could provide a great weight saving on ammo, carrying a second dedicated upper negates the benefit of the 22 ammo weight.

Ultimately, we all have to figure out what is best for each of us in our potential environment. In the desert areas, you would obviously have to pack more water and set up for longer range shooting than in a forested environment. Urban areas, fire and maneuver as well as fast movement are a priority. In some cases, even facing a vastly superior number, you may be best off just hunkering down and bunkering your residence.

[TRU]

I'm surprised people aren't grabbing for AK/AK Variants. If a bunch of hooligans are taking over, chances are that's their weapon of choice, so ammunition would be easy to come by. Personally, I'd grab my 700PSS, AK, Glock 19 (I love the 1911, but that would probably have to stay behind. Ammunition sourcing may be an issue for 45 in a SHTF situation), and my Ruger MkII, as far as specifically weapons go.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by TRU

I'm surprised people aren't grabbing for AK/AK Variants. If a bunch of hooligans are taking over, chances are that's their weapon of choice, so ammunition would be easy to come by. Personally, I'd grab my 700PSS, AK, Glock 19 (I love the 1911, but that would probably have to stay behind. Ammunition sourcing may be an issue for 45 in a SHTF situation), and my Ruger MkII, as far as specifically weapons go.

TRU, what do you consider to be a reasonable amount of weight (food, water, shelter, guns, ammo, etc.) to carry in this scenario?

TR

[The_Mentalist]

If the time comes that I would have to source handgun ammo, the handgun would be available too. Until then, I trust the 1911 more than any of the wonder 9's. Also, given the probability that the BGs wil most likely be government forces (not necessarily military), AR variants or NATO rounds are those most likely to be carried by the BG. I always preach to stock up on what your potential enemy carries (in a non military situation) and I see our greatest threat coming from NATO or our own government. Civilian situations will eventually rise out of that, but the primary threat is what the founders thought of when they added the 2A to the bill of rights.

Eta: in most instances, I would consider 100 pounds of supplies plus the weight of the loaded weapons (not spare ammo) to be good enough to get you to safe harbor. I figure on 30 pounds of ammo, 10 pounds of clothing (a few changes), 20 total water, 25 food and then some accessories. Just a generalization but a decent base line.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by The_Mentalist

If the time comes that I would have to source handgun ammo, the handgun would be available too. Until then, I trust the 1911 more than any of the wonder 9's. Also, given the probability that the BGs wil most likely be government forces (not necessarily military), AR variants or NATO rounds are those most likely to be carried by the BG. I always preach to stock up on what your potential enemy carries (in a non military situation) and I see our greatest threat coming from NATO or our own government. Civilian situations will eventually rise out of that, but the primary threat is what the founders thought of when they added the 2A to the bill of rights.

Eta: in most instances, I would consider 100 pounds of supplies plus the weight of the loaded weapons (not spare ammo) to be good enough to get you to safe harbor. I figure on 30 pounds of ammo, 10 pounds of clothing (a few changes), 20 total water, 25 food and then some accessories. Just a generalization but a decent base line.

Mentalist, have you humped 130 pounds of gun and supplies lately, in a tactical operation?

TR

[Peregrino]

Hmmm. Mentalist - I think you might want to reconsider your assumptions. I've jumped and then carried 130+ pound rucksacks. I was also in my 20's and in the best shape of my life. I now have a number of interesting prescriptions that I partake of when my body decides to remind me of the abuse it has been subjected to over the years. If you're forced to hoof it with 100 lbs of crap plus weapons and ammo without that semi you're used to depending on you're not going to make 100 miles without getting scarfed up by the opposition.

I've read some interesting approaches to the problem but don't consider most of them to be particularly viable. Perhaps it's time to relook the original "challenge".

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Another scenario to play with.

You are at home and have five minutes notice that you are about to be raided by a vastly superior force. You need to execute your personal E&E plan.

The streets and roads are already covered for vehicle movement, so you will have to move out on foot to a safe area 100 miles away.

You already have a bug out bag prepared with 45 pounds of food, water, shelter, med gear, survival tools, etc. We can discuss the contents of the bag if you like.

You need to hit the woods on foot and may need to harvest game, defend yourself against predators, and engage small hostile teams. Try not to beat this scenario to death.

Your safe is open and you may grab as many weapons, mags, and as much ammo as you wish to carry.

What do you take and why?

TR

Emphasis is to refocus the discussion. Many of the participants in this discussion appear to have overlooked/ignored the set parameters of the scenario. Interestingly, TR has given some specific and (I think) generous allowances with the already packed BOB. Many of you wanting to include the kitchen sink on your packing list would benefit from reading "The Load of a Nation". The basic premise (overburdened soldiers are not combat effective) was sharply reinforced during Operation ANACONDA.

Personally I'm concentrating on what it takes to break contact, discourage pursuit, reduce signature, and maintain my physical condition over 7-10 days of tactical movement so I can reach my destination and recover/prepare for Phase II. Food for thought - Having a prepared destination and knowing what to do when you get there is something everyone participating in this "thought experiment" should be giving due consideration. MOO, YMMV.

[Old Dog New Trick]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Another scenario to play with.

You are at home and have five minutes notice that you are about to be raided by a vastly superior force. You need to execute your personal E&E plan.

The streets and roads are already covered...SNIP...

Your safe is open and you may grab as many weapons, mags, and as much ammo as you wish to carry.

What do you take and why?

TR

Is it dark or light outside?

In a perfect world, I'd like to take a long gun...but it may not be feasible if drawing unwanted attention and several 911 phone calls spoils my plans to blend in and move discreetly amongst the sheep...

If by land I'd take the AR (light weight, more ammo) if by sea, I'd prefer the HK-91 in .308/7.62.

Probably in five-minutes or less, I'd be abandoning my abode with the pistol on my hip and three mags. Work out the extras on the run and acquire weapons and ammo through recovery...

[The_Mentalist]

No, I have not humped that "lately" and fortunately have never had to do it in a "real" combat situation. I would, most likely, given the original challenge, seriously pare down my load. A basic load out of ammo instead of the larger quantity previously mentioned, cut food in half and reduce clothing to socks and skivvies. Water would still remain a higher priority for weight allowance depending on source availability. The one issue I have that you don't is that I can not base a load out on any one location. I must remain fully capable for any environment. This is one reason I carry as much in the truck as I do. Even right now, in the middle of summer, I carry winter clothing. I also carry summer clothing in the middle of January. I have had a full 130 degree temperature swing in just 14 hours one day from 115 in Vegas to -15 that evening in park city Utah. The temps changed so fast that it cracked my windshield. I tend to be more aware of environmental considerations than some one that stays in one location.

[spherojon]

In this scenario I'm not bringing 4 extra pair of cloths with the kitchen sink and all that jazz. Why? Because I'm getting the f out of the area. TRs post, "BE PREPARED" (http://professionalsoldiers.com/foru...hlight=bug+bag) really hit home with me considering I am in Southern California and its a high % that a natural disaster will hit. SC has millions of people here, and if sh*t hit the fan, well those millions now have no food, no power, and limited resources in this desert. The quicker I get the f* out undetected, the better (roadblocks, gangs, looting, etc). With that said, I already have a stache of food, clothing, ammo, guns, and my pride and joy, an running aquaponics system in a secure location about 180 miles away (also near freshwater). I have two bug out bags, one in my car to get me home, the other, at home to get me to my secure location (at a gold mine off the beaten path in the Sierra Nevada). I also have a TW 200 and access to horses in my area. Location is mapped out that leaves me off the main roads and highways. My point with all of this is, in this scenario, there is no point to having 130 pounds of gear, 40 pounds of it being in guns and ammo. My bug out bags change with the season, but for summer, temperature doesnt go from 120 down to -15, its about 70-120 right now, but I plan on traveling at night. The only bad thing about this scenario is that its limited to 100 miles...so I have to bring a 870 Wingmaster and ammo instead of relying on my spare at my secure location.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by The_Mentalist

No, I have not humped that "lately" and fortunately have never had to do it in a "real" combat situation. I would, most likely, given the original challenge, seriously pare down my load. A basic load out of ammo instead of the larger quantity previously mentioned, cut food in half and reduce clothing to socks and skivvies. Water would still remain a higher priority for weight allowance depending on source availability. The one issue I have that you don't is that I can not base a load out on any one location. I must remain fully capable for any environment. This is one reason I carry as much in the truck as I do. Even right now, in the middle of summer, I carry winter clothing. I also carry summer clothing in the middle of January. I have had a full 130 degree temperature swing in just 14 hours one day from 115 in Vegas to -15 that evening in park city Utah. The temps changed so fast that it cracked my windshield. I tend to be more aware of environmental considerations than some one that stays in one location.

I don't think that your load carrying estimate of 100 pounds of gear, plus guns is realistic for the scenario I described, particularly since I specified a 45 pound BoB as your basic load. I have carried loads in excess of 100 pounds before, and to move 100 miles in a hurry, it is just not practical, certainly not tactical.

If you can't physically carry the load, why would you post it here as what you would take? There was no truck in this scenario, it is foot movement only. When in doubt, RTFQ.

If you want to start a "what to carry in a get home vehicle bag" thread, have at it.

Barring severe altitude changes (which I would not attempt in this scenario), 100 miles distance will not normally put you in a significantly different climate, but if it did, my experience is that as long as you are reasonably dressed, you only get significantly cooler when you stop moving. The main issue (for me) would be staying reasonably warm in a cold climate and staying reasonably bug free in a warm climate.

Originally Posted by spherojon

In this scenario I'm not bringing 4 extra pair of cloths with the kitchen sink and all that jazz. Why? Because I'm getting the f out of the area. TRs post, "BE PREPARED" (http://professionalsoldiers.com/foru...hlight=bug+bag) really hit home with me considering I am in Southern California and its a high % that a natural disaster will hit. SC has millions of people here, and if sh*t hit the fan, well those millions now have no food, no power, and limited resources in this desert. The quicker I get the f* out undetected, the better (roadblocks, gangs, looting, etc). With that said, I already have a stache of food, clothing, ammo, guns, and my pride and joy, an running aquaponics system in a secure location about 180 miles away (also near freshwater). I have two bug out bags, one in my car to get me home, the other, at home to get me to my secure location (at a gold mine off the beaten path in the Sierra Nevada). I also have a TW 200 and access to horses in my area. Location is mapped out that leaves me off the main roads and highways. My point with all of this is, in this scenario, there is no point to having 130 pounds of gear, 40 pounds of it being in guns and ammo. My bug out bags change with the season, but for summer, temperature doesnt go from 120 down to -15, its about 70-120 right now, but I plan on traveling at night. The only bad thing about this scenario is that its limited to 100 miles...so I have to bring a 870 Wingmaster and ammo instead of relying on my spare at my secure location.

Good plan, I like the combo bags. I suppose you could also do seasonal, but I don't normally go out in the winter without proper clothing on anyway. I guess for winter, I would grab a goretex parka, a set of poly pro underwear, a fleece vest, a pair of insulated gloves, and a stocking cap.

Once you get out of the city, you are probably in an area where you could actually use a rifle to its max range rather than the shotgun. Not sure if there is any game to be harvested to supplement your diet, but I would size the caliber and ammo based on the max range and game size/threat.

I also agree with the traveling only at night, once you break out of the initial search area. Thermal scanning / FLIR from helicopters could make this challenging.

I am thinking one rifle/carbine and one pistol. I would allow that a second pistol would not be unreasonable, if you have the weight to spare. A couple of hundred rounds of AR/AK ammo or a hundred rounds of large rifle ammo, no more than 50 rounds or so of pistol ammo, and a couple hundred rounds of rimfire would be more than enough firepower. Depending on the environment, a hatchet, or a camp axe, or a machete, or a really big knife, and a smaller fixed blade knife and a multi-tool should do it.

TR

[doctom54]

Given the parameters. I would probably try to move at night (with my NVGs available) and keep a VERY low profile. For this I would pick my AR and 6 mags plus my suppressed Ruger Mk III. If needed you can acquire small game quietly. Plus you can always start to solve any problem you meet quietly then escalate IF required.

[TRU]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

TRU, what do you consider to be a reasonable amount of weight (food, water, shelter, guns, ammo, etc.) to carry in this scenario?

TR

To still be realistic, I would say around 45-70 lbs, depending on the situation, weather, and the region I'm going to. Not trying to hump anything over 70 lbs, especially with limited food and water. I've certainly humped more, but it wasn't quick nor tactical. Humping 70lbs + of gear, ammunition, etc. for ~100 miles is going to require a decent amount of water and other sources of food/energy.

My bag certainly wouldn't have a bunch of changes of clothes, etc. in it, especially if I only had 5 min to grab my shit and un-ass the area. I'd certainly have a change of socks, gloves and knit cap (if it's winter) and bug repellant, small aid kit, and maybe a lightweight change of pants/shirt Hammock, Petzl headlamp, woobie, some field stripped MRE's, 2 nalgenes (water weight adds up quick as we all know, haha) and a couple other odd's and ends adds up quick, so I'd prefer to keep it light. This is assuming it would already be packed in my go bag.

I chose the AK due to ammunition sourcing (though, I suppose that would depend on the forces taking over and what they carried) and the fact that it requires less regular maint. than the AR platform, and would be a more feasible hunting weapon than an AR platform carbine. The Glock was chosen along the same premises. No matter what I throw at it, when I pull the trigger, it will go bang. I don't think the Ruger MkII is unreasonable; it's lightweight, extremely useful in this situation (Do you really want to shoot a squirrel or rabbit with an AK/AR/700/Shotgun? Kinda defeats the purpose of hunting for food), plus compared to the other options it's rather quiet when fired. Not to mention ammo is lightweight. I may have been a little overzealous with the 700PSS though. Give or take an 11lb rifle, plus .308 ammo isn't light, especially when I'm on the run.