On the Run

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by spherojon

The take-down 10/22 and shotgun are solely for hunting. Its a toss up between my shotgun, my 300 Weatherby (about 10lbs) + Ammo, and my 1957 Marlin 336 30-30 (7 1/2 pounds) + ammo. I am trying to avoid the packs of unknown armed forces. I went with a shotgun because I figured it has a wider use of ammo then the Weatherby and Marlin.

A minor point for consideration: rifles and carbines allow you to engage opponents at distance; i.e. in your comfort zone. Shotguns require you to allow them to close into their comfort zone. Personally, I prefer the odds to be a little more lopsided than that. To paraphrase Clint Smith "if you're fighting fair, your tactics suck".

[The Reaper]

Okay, here is my offered solution.

If I anticipated a need for battlefield recovery of ammunition, I would probably take a 16" 5.56x45mm mid-length gas system M-4, with a Trijicon ACOG or a Leupold low mag optic and a red dot backup. Add a .22LR conversion unit and you have what I would call an extremely versatile weapons system. You can successfully engage targets at 400 meters or more, effectively engage in CQB, hunt game up to 200 pounds or so, and easily harvest small game.

Alternately, were I not concerned about recovering ammunition, I would choose to carry the same system in .300 AAC Blackout with a suppressor and have a supersonic equivalent to either .30-30 or 7.62x39 and a heavy subsonic load that is extremely quiet. That would allow the same combat effectiveness along with the ability to take game of several hundred pounds, or to engage close targets quietly without changing anything but the ammunition. Even the mags are the same as 5.56. Quiet is part of keeping a low profile and avoiding unnecessary trouble until you decide to engage.

BTW, a good, solid piston-driven system like the HK or PWS offers a good alternative to the direct impingement gas system Eugene Stoner originally designed.

Weight of either system with the accessories and can would be around ten pounds. I would anticipate five to seven mags of ammo to be adequate for the mission unless heavy contact was anticipated. Five loaded mags and the last sixty rounds on strippers would be a way to shave a little more weight. Total carbine and accessory weight, 15-17 lbs.

It pains me to say it, but the centerfire pistol round that represents the best bang for the ounce for me is a 9x19. I seriously doubt that you would successfully expend more than 50 pistol rounds in combat and in a modern JHP, it provides adequate punch. Obviously, .40 S&W or .45ACP would present better terminal ballistic perfomance, but at a cost of significantly more weight. .45ACP weighs almost twice as much per round as 9x19. A box of 50 rounds of .45ACP weighs more than two pounds without the mags. A pistol, several mags with ammo, and you could be up to four or more pounds for a back-up weapon.

OTOH, if you have a reliable primary weapon, and your back-up only serves as an emergency weapon, a .22LR pistol seems to me to be a viable, weight conscious alternative, primarily for gathering small game, finishing larger game, and for emergency combat use. Shot placement would be key. If you can hit the vital areas, a .22 round beats a sharp stick. Would I prefer a 9mm or a .45? Absolutely. Could I get by with a .22 at less than half the weight? I think so.

There are several good .22LR pistols which can be fitted with suppressors. Total weight of the pistol with the suppressor is less than 1.5 pounds. .22LR ammo weighs roughly one pound per 133 rounds. The .22LR pistol package with pistol, can, a couple of mags, and 100 rounds of ammo would be around 2.5 pounds.

If you were carrying the same caliber weapons and were part of a group, commonality of mags and ammo would be very desirable. Those with non-standard weapons should have a good reason for it. Such as the desire to be able to engage targets at extreme ranges, requiring a heavier, larger caliber rifle.

Total weight of the carbine system and ammo, pistol system and ammo, and a small cleaning kit and lube would be less than 20 pounds.

Just my thoughts, I am sure someone here has an equally good solution. I would say that as long as you are able to successfully hunt and adequately defend yourself with your choice, it was the right one. Unfortunately, in this case, finding out you made the wrong choice has some unpleasant circumstances.

TR

[BryanK]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

...The intent is to discuss weapons choices and possibly bug out bag contents.

TR

Roger. First up is my gear followed by the wifes gear

Weapon Choices:

I'd have to take my .308 Rem 700 for stand-off purposes even though it weighs as much as a buick. I'd carry 60 rounds which I think would be sufficient for the short-term. My small take-down .22 Marlin 70P will be slung and I'd carry roughly 200 rounds (100 regular, and 100 very quiet Super Colibri rounds which can kill a squirrel at 30 yards) for it between the pack and wear. M9 hip-holstered with dual drop leg rigs set up to carry my .22 and 9mm mags (helps distribute weight).

ProTech folder knife (auto), and this dinky Smith & Wesson "rescue" knife that has served me well skinning/butchering game without losing it's edge.

Pack:

Camelback, 3 MRE's, a pack or two of crackers, small bag of Fritos (good fire starter) and a loaf of bread. Light and fills you up, plus the bread doubles as bait to catch real bait with. Small first aid kit, 550 cord, small roll of 100mph tape, fishing line, a few sinkers, bobbers, and hooks. I like the idea of snare wire, but my limited experience and lack of time to wait (due to the E&E) would render that moot I think.

Also in the pack would be a sharpening stone, a few ziplocks, a few Bic lighters, a pair of small bino's, E-tool, extra diapers, and a healthy dose of motivation.

Wife's kit:

Baby, baby carrier (front load), Camelback, diapers, pacifier, and a few extra rounds of whatever will fit. I need to keep her light so she doesn't tire out too quickly. An interesting fact for those who don't already know, is that a breast-fed babies shit doesn't stink all that much and will not be detectable by nearby threats (either 2 or 4 legged). It's also a plus not having to lug around formula.

ETA: 2 ponchos and 2 woobies

[FlagDayNCO]

Great topic and some real nice advice/ thoughts bouncing back and forth.

We live in a rural area, but with numerous developments in the region, plus some major highways to cross when we move further away from Filthadelphia. In a SHTF scenario, we expect the city dwellers to fan out into the suburbs, and the suburbs to dig in. Some will E&E.

Our region is open farmland and rolling forested hills. Movement to a 100 mile line would include major river corssings in any direction, so I have planned routes to avoid those crossings.

As we think about E&E, so will many others. State sponsered forces or local groups may take control of key choke points and crossings. One may be a source of additional supplies and ammo, while the other may look to tax yours. Or trade you in if captured.

We have small children that are all elementary school age. This complicates the movement, as they are not Ranger school grads, so we think about where and how to move. Extra weight in bringing items to keep them quiet may be as simple as hard candy, stuffed animals, and maybe some small toys.

The oldest has his own Ruger 10-22, which becomes our game gun. We have several AR types, all same caliber. Spouse and I would take one each, plus I have equipped them with suppressors. Red dots and iron sights. Except for 10-22, all carbines share same ammo and mags for their type. Common operating charecteristics, repairs, parts, etc. Same for pistols.

Go bags with ammo are in vehicles, plus in home. Bicycles can be set to go in a few minutes.

I thought about fully loaded kit, but that may have to be ditched for long range movement. Simple chest harnesses will suffice, plus they can be concealed under a shirt.

Cell phones may go, but inside signal proof bags. We also have an external drive dowloaded with maps from Delorma Gazeteer, plus two paper versions. Can be connected to iPad. These are great, as they show terrain features and other data. Silva compasses in everyone's bags. The boys have "played Army" many times and learned how to navigate. Solar recharge system that can lay on rucksack while we move, or on ground. If hostile force is State sponsored, all the cell devices get left behind.

We have a hand crank radio, so we can gather some type of news about what is happening.

Water bottles and filter systems to gather water on the route. Various candy and protein bars such as Snickers and Cliff. Trial with the boys has learned what they will and will not eat. Convincing a four year old that he must eat something he doesn't like is not to be tested during E&E. Know before you go.

Though we have a couple of ponchos, everyone carries at least one very large, heavy duty contractor type trash bag. The boys have learned to make a shelter and sleeping bags with these.

Several headlamps, first aid to include childrens cold medicine, fire starters and Bic lighters, small axe for firewood/ shelter.

Each boy has his own mini rucksack to carry extra socks and shirts. Nothing to wear them down, plus the real possibility that we may have to carry the two smallest boys. We still have the cloth baby carriers that are essentially long clothes to wrap the child in and front carry them.

We do have friends in the immediate area, plus locations we will go to farther away.

Cash in US currency, plus coins of silver and gold in the event the cash is useless.

In the past, we had ideas we could make it all the way into the mountains of Central PA or down into South West VA. Reality may be that is a bridge too far, so we have developed routes with alternate destinations.

With us, key is to keep the boys healthy and safe. Sick or screaming children can lead the bad guys to us.

I will not go into every item we will carry, as we want to follow the KISS plan and move out.

[Ape Man]

I see that almost everyone is going to take a AR type rifle along with them when they try to escape and evaded. I will be the heretic and argue that taking an AR weapon would be a mistake for me and most other normal people. All I would take is one silenced 22 long rife and 500 rounds of ammo.

I understand that having one weapon means that if that weapon fails you are out of luck. I understand that it is not much of a weapon for defensive purposes. But I think that if I was trying to E&E by myself, trying to bring along defensive equipment would only make it that much more likely that my E&E would fail. And trying to have redundancy is going to make my E&E fail.

I am assuming that I would be escaping on foot and that my pursuers would not have this handicapped. 100 miles in any direction from where I live there is lots of water. Their is also lots of roads. Anytime I make contact, unless I eliminate everyone really fast (not realistic, I am not a professional warrior) is just going to result in a radio call to bring more guys along the roads into blocking positions in a hurry. If E&E does not work, I am dead. If I want to try for a heroic stand I will not start running in the first place.

Given that I have to go 100 miles and given that I am being hunted, I am not going to be gathering a lot of wild food in trip. Also I am going to need to be moving fast. So I am going to take 20 (a href="http://www.mreinfo.com/us/fsr/first-strike-ration.html") First Strike Ration(/a), one Katadyn® Pocket Water Filter, two one quart canteens (finding water is not going to be a problem). One space blanket and enough burlap to make a stand off cover (For disguising IR signature), piano wire (making snares, using wire at neck height poachers have even caught white tailed deer. It is a nasty way for them to die, but not as loud as using a rifle). Fishing line and hooks. One small box of raisins (put small enough hooks in the raisins and turkeys have been known to swallow them). Several ways of making a fire (even though I most likely will not be able to do this until the end of my journey). One box of doggy treats well soaked in radiator fluid (I know well trained tracking dogs will not eat what they find on the trail but it can't hurt to try. They might not all be well trained).

A professional warrior might get some use out of taking an AR on E&E. But most of us are not professional warriors. I read what TR says about recovering ammo and I think to myself "I only wish I was good enough to be in a position to recover ammo while trying to escape."

[Red Flag 1]

My exit would take me to the Appalachin Trail. It is an easy two hour hike from the house. Plenty of game if needed, and plenty of off trail places to seek concealment. I'll stick to arms, for the moment, and say I would bring along my Glock 17 and the six loaded extended mags. For the long gun, I have a Marlin 30-30 lever action wih iron sights only; 150 rounds should see me through. The other choice is my bolt actioon 30-06, with scope; and 150 rounds for it.

The 30-30 gives me an easily carried weapon with good reach, for game and defense. The 30-06 gives me much better reach, and added accuracy with the mounted scope; the down side is that it is not as easy to carry. Both are accurate and reliable in my hands. Which is the better long gun to take? I've ruled out my 870, 12 gauge, and the 22 gauge weapons. Your thoughts, kind sirs..

RF 1

[The Reaper]

IMHO, you guys with infants and young kids are (temporarily) at a huge disadvantage. We do what we have to to care for our loved ones though. I know I didn't understand that attachment till I had kids of my own. OTOH, you have the opportunity to raise them right, and with the skills to survive.

Those asking about the BoB discussion, there are a couple of threads here that cover them, please look around, do some searching, and if you cannot find what you are after, come back here and ask again.

Unless your route offers a lot of opportunities for long range shots and huge danger areas, I believe that the civilian bolt guns will be of limited utility. I would do some serious tactical analysis and terrain study, take a look at the route(s) from various points along the way, and then decide what the appropriate weapons would be. You may find that the terrain keeps engagement ranges within shotgun range, or allows long range shots where you could whittle the enemy down with a long gun and a powerful round and quickly disappear. Most movement over that distance will be a combination, hence the preference for the magazine-fed, semi-auto carbine. The weapon also comes in a variety of rounds that would allow you to tailor the weapon for the METT-T.

The shelter also needs to be designed around the terrain and seasonal conditions you expect to encounter. No point in humping a sleeping bag if the lows are in the 80s.

An axe, a machete, or a kukri may be appropriate for the tasks you expect to encounter. The final choice will be a compromise that you have to live with.

Those who live in cities or close to major highways are going to have a load of challenges.

I agree, if you are on the run, trapping is impractical, unless you are taking a day off to collect food. The gear is so light and so much more efficient that I cannot imagine not taking at least a few feet of snare wire or a couple of pre-made snares.

Ape Man, I think you are selling yourself short. If you are experienced in the woods, trained and tactically competent, you may fare better against a squad of goons with limited field experience than yyou think. Obviously, if you are the only one being pursued, and a large organization can dedicate its full resources to pursuing just you, with drones and electronic surveillance, thermal tracking, etc., we would all be in jeopardy. OTOH, you hurt people chasing you badly enough, they may find less motivation to close with you and take a punch again.

You can quickly and easily drop in a .22LR conversion kit into an M-4 and use that, if noise is a concern. The 10/22 is a nice plinking and squirrel rifle, but you would be very fortunate to hit anyone beyond 50 meters in a vital area that the .22LR would be effective. I would go beyond scavenging ammo to say that the U.S. planned to drop a million unrifled .45ACP Liberator pistols to the resistance movements in Europe, with instructions telling the people who got them to use the pistol to kill an enemy soldier and take his weapon. Food for thought, if it came down to that.

I can get near .30-30 performance out of a .300 Blackout, and have 30 round mags or more. The ability to shoot subsonic (in the suppressed rifle) by merely popping in a mag of subsonic ammo is very appealing. For those with an AR/M4/M16 rifle already, the switch consists of nothing more than swapping uppers. The ammo is still a little pricey, but you make the brass out of 5.56 cases, and the bullets are all .30 cal/7.62. The powder for most loads is magnum pistol powder. You can push a 110 gr. projo to 2400 fps. The preferred supersonic load seems to be a 125 gr. bullet at 2215 fps. Surplus M80 Ball 147s run right at 2000 fps, so the round is right up there close to the .30-30 and 7.62x39, and the bullets are more efficient than the RNs of the .30-30 or FMJs of the Soviet M43 round.

RF1, I would take a look at the route before making that decision. If you can't take advantage of the superior range of the .30-06, the .30-30 is quicker till you have to reload.

Great discussion, guys, hope it is as helpful to you as it is to me.

TR

[MR2]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

the U.S. planned to drop a million unrifled .45ACP Liberator pistols to the resistance movements in Europe, with instructions telling the people who got them to use the pistol to kill an enemy soldier and take his weapon.

The Mosin-Nagant has been killing Americans since 1916. They are now available in large quantities and at low prices. Some are in excellent shape and most are just adequate. None the less, Go Wolverines!

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Great discussion, guys, hope it is as helpful to you as it is to me.

Very much so.

[Buckles]

Okay since the thread is what weapons I wont really go into the pack, I will say beside a good knife and machete, I go with roofing axe instead of a hatchet, they are designed with a hammer head and nail puller, just a little more useful in case you have to deconstruct something and salvage nails.

Now the weapons, first my M4 11.5 barrel with suppressor, topped with an eotech and gunlight, add to that a 2nd uppper with match grade barrel and Leupold 3X12, it will take the same suppressor as well. 120 rounds fo 62g 5.56 on my gun belt and added 120rds in a bandolier in the pack. Add to that 60 rds of Hornady 75g BTHP for the second upper.
2nd would be my SIG P226 in 9mm, two 20rd mags, two 15rd mags. Add to that a .22lr conversion kit for the P226, 1 mag, .22lr suppressor and 200rds of ammo, all of which will fit in a single ammo pouch.

I got what I need it the M4 to protect myself and take larger game as needed, P226 in 9mm for back up to the M4, and the suppressed .22lr to take small game on the movement.

[Badger52]

Originally Posted by MR2

The Mosin-Nagant has been killing Americans since 1916. They are now available in large quantities and at low prices. Some are in excellent shape and most are just adequate. None the less, Go Wolverines!

Can't recall where but there was a (very) elderly gent awhile back on some forum that recognized he wasn't gonna be in shape for the <fill-in your favorite> revolution/apocalypse & could only "support." But support he would & went out and bought a boatload of M-N's and enough ammo to provide a couple of platoon's worth of folks a rifle & 60 rounds if they ever need it. Something about quantity having a quality all its own.

[Ape Man]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Ape Man, I think you are selling yourself short. If you are experienced in the woods, trained and tactically competent, you may fare better against a squad of goons with limited field experience than yyou think. Obviously, if you are the only one being pursued, and a large organization can dedicate its full resources to pursuing just you, with drones and electronic surveillance, thermal tracking, etc., we would all be in jeopardy. OTOH, you hurt people chasing you badly enough, they may find less motivation to close with you and take a punch again.

You can quickly and easily drop in a .22LR conversion kit into an M-4 and use that, if noise is a concern. The 10/22 is a nice plinking and squirrel rifle, but you would be very fortunate to hit anyone beyond 50 meters in a vital area that the .22LR would be effective. I would go beyond scavenging ammo to say that the U.S. planned to drop a million unrifled .45ACP Liberator pistols to the resistance movements in Europe, with instructions telling the people who got them to use the pistol to kill an enemy soldier and take his weapon. Food for thought, if it came down to that.

TR

You are the professional, not me. All I know about E&E comes from books. I imagine that you have a lot more practical experience.

The only thing that moved me to comment is contrast between what I read in the history books and what I read in modern survival forums and such. It seems to me that the key difference between people who have escaped throughout history (be they POWs, escaped slaves, or fugitives from justice) is the quality of the people chasing them and the speed at which they are able to move.

If you can make 6 miles a day over rough terrain (i.e. you are not talking any trails and moving through the brush) your pursuers have to cover 113 sq miles if they are not sure which direction you ran. If you can make 8 miles, they have to cover 200 some miles. If you can make 10 miles they will have to cover over 300 miles. Granted, those figures are inflated because those chasing you will have some indication of where you are going. But the fact remains that a small increase in speed will greatly increase the work load on those chasing you.

Most people doing manhunts or looking for lost people first look at a map and try to figure out where it is likely that you will be. If you can get out side of that zone you have a much better chance than if you try to remain undetected within that zone. I think we can all think of a recent fugitive who almost escaped detection from a massive man hunt just because he managed to get a few yards outside of where they thought he would be.

All that was just a long winded way of saying that I think more people will die because they took too much then because they took too little. It is very easy for most of us to imagine situations where we need this or that. It is very hard for us to imagine how much slower a few extra pounds will make us. Most people who make up E&E plans on the internet are focused on covering every eventuality, not on moving as fast as possible while leaving as little trace as possible.

The thought behind my load out was, "How can I move as fast as possible and still sustain myself if I shook pursuit?" In a real situation, I would not take near as much food as I listed. But you said 100 miles so I figured I would be cheating if I took less.

I think given your experience you would be a fool if you did not take an AR. But given history, I suspect most people would be better off shaving every single pound that they possible could and still have a hope of sustaining themselves at the end of the journey.

I hope we never do large scale tests of that theory though.

[Lmmsoat]

If my safe was open and I would have anything thing to grab, it would be my SF medical handbook and anything of value. Handbook to buy goodwill and money to raise an army to defeat said hoard while you guys run for the hills. Guns are tools. Your mind's your weapon. That's just the Green Beret in me talking. Or maybe it's the rum. Probably the rum.

For academics, M4 clone (any type) with.22 conversion, pistol (any type) 9mm Luger. Anything else is dead weight. Sorry honey, didn't mean you.

[BryanK]

I didn't see this mentioned anywhere else on the board via the search button, but in this scenario would it be a good idea to acquire one of these?: Colt LE901

I have not handled one, but the versatility of having both a carbine .308 and 5.56 AR platform with only one receiver seems like a good idea. The Bushmaster ACR appeared to me to be too maintenance intensive to quickly change calibers, whereas this seems to be an easier transition. If it can take a run of the mill 5.56 upper I imagine it could take a .22 conversion as well? Does anyone have any experience with this rifle that they would like to share in respect to it being/not being an option for this emergency bug-out?

Here is a youtube video: LE901 video

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by BryanK

I didn't see this mentioned anywhere else on the board via the search button, but in this scenario would it be a good idea to acquire one of these?: Colt LE901

I have not handled one, but the versatility of having both a carbine .308 and 5.56 AR platform with only one receiver seems like a good idea. The Bushmaster ACR appeared to me to be too maintenance intensive to quickly change calibers, whereas this seems to be an easier transition. If it can take a run of the mill 5.56 upper I imagine it could take a .22 conversion as well? Does anyone have any experience with this rifle that they would like to share in respect to it being/not being an option for this emergency bug-out?

Here is a youtube video: LE901 video

You would need another upper for 5.56, with the bolt carrier and charging handle. At that point, you are within a couple of pounds of humping two complete carbines.

A .22LR conversion unit uses the .223/5.56 barrel for the bullet to engage the rifling. The 7.62 upper would not work for that system.

I suppose a case could be made for a .308 carbine, and a dedicated .22LR upper, but again, the upper with conversion unit and CH probably weighs a lot more than a .22LR pistol and probably almost as much as a 10/22 Ruger.

Your call, looks gimmicky to me.

TR

[Odin21]

In regards to sidearm selection-
Would any of you consider it a benefit to carry a Glock .40 with a 40-9 conversion barrel? I have no personal experience with them but I have seen them mentioned here before by QPs, so I am assuming that at least some people have had some luck with them. If they are reliable enough, I would imagine that having a pistol that could shoot .40 or 9mm and a rifle that could shoot .22LR and 5.56mm would be a pretty powerful, lightweight package. If you have the conversion barrel in your weapon and it loaded with the 9mm JHP carry ammo of your choice, for the weight of a few empty .40 mags and the original barrel you can shoot whatever .40 you pick up or have at your destination. I know that I have a wider variety of ammo at my eventual location than I could reasonably carry weapons for, so having one pistol that allows me to shoot two fairly common rounds may be a benefit.

That being said, there are people on here far more proficient and experienced than I and I would really like to hear your input. Thank you for your time.