What makes a terrorist?

[SF-TX]

Originally Posted by Richard

McVeigh also requested a Catholic priest be present at his execution.

I suspect that may have been "E" in his PACE plan.

[T-Rock]

Jihad means struggle and in response to the verses you cited, here are some other verses...

If the elderly and disabled are exempt from the “struggle” what exactly does it mean?

o9.4 Those called upon (o: to perform jihad when it is a communal obligation) are every able bodied man who has reached puberty and is sane.

o9.5 The following may not fight in jihad:
(1) someone in debt, unless his creditor gives him leave:
(2) or someone with at least one muslim parent, until they give their permission:
Unless the muslims are surrounded by the enemy, in which case it is permissible for them to fight without permission.
(Reliance of the Traveler. Pgs 602-603)

Read Qur’an 9:29.

[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

cszakolczal - what role does al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh play on the verses you’ve cited and what role does the below verse play?

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....." Surah 9:5

FWIW, the following Surahs have no authority and have been nullified:
Surahs 2, 3, 5, 8, 14, 18, 19, 21, 22, 24, 25, 26, 33, 34, 40, 42, 51, 52, 56, 58, 73, 103, and 108
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or...ation-in-islam

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...wal-Mansukh%29

Edited to add:

“They have been brain washed, and have been cited verses out of context in order to create a sense of martydom…”

FWIW, the Qur’an & Hadith guarantee martyrs a fast track to Islamic paradise to have their sins forgiven, regardless of any debauchery they may have been engaged in.

God has purchased the persons and possessions of the believers for the Garden—they fight [q-t-l] in God’s way: they kill [q-t-l] and are killed [q-t-l]—this is a true promise given by Him .... Who could be more faithful to his promise than God? So be happy with the bargain you have made: that is the supreme triumph.(9:111)

You who believe, shall I show you a bargain that will save you from painful punishment? 11 Have faith in God and His Messenger and struggle [j-h-d] for His cause with your possessions and your persons—that is better for you, if only you knew—12 and He will forgive your sins, admit you into Gardens graced with flowing streams, into pleasant dwellings in the Gardens of Eternity. That is the supreme triumph (61:10)

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/jihad-m...-of-the-grave/

http://www.meforum.org/646/the-qaradawi-fatwas

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...6422368&hl=da#

Originally Posted by T-Rock

If the elderly and disabled are exempt from the “struggle” what exactly does it mean?

o9.4 Those called upon (o: to perform jihad when it is a communal obligation) are every able bodied man who has reached puberty and is sane.

o9.5 The following may not fight in jihad:
(1) someone in debt, unless his creditor gives him leave:
(2) or someone with at least one muslim parent, until they give their permission:
Unless the muslims are surrounded by the enemy, in which case it is permissible for them to fight without permission.
(Reliance of the Traveler. Pgs 602-603)

Read Qur’an 9:29.



cszakolczal - what role does al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh play on the verses you’ve cited and what role does the below verse play?

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....." Surah 9:5

FWIW, the following Surahs have no authority and have been nullified:
Surahs 2, 3, 5, 8, 14, 18, 19, 21, 22, 24, 25, 26, 33, 34, 40, 42, 51, 52, 56, 58, 73, 103, and 108
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or...ation-in-islam

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...wal-Mansukh%29

Edited to add:




FWIW, the Qur’an & Hadith guarantee martyrs a fast track to Islamic paradise to have their sins forgiven, regardless of any debauchery they may have been engaged in.

God has purchased the persons and possessions of the believers for the Garden—they fight [q-t-l] in God’s way: they kill [q-t-l] and are killed [q-t-l]—this is a true promise given by Him .... Who could be more faithful to his promise than God? So be happy with the bargain you have made: that is the supreme triumph.(9:111)

You who believe, shall I show you a bargain that will save you from painful punishment? 11 Have faith in God and His Messenger and struggle [j-h-d] for His cause with your possessions and your persons—that is better for you, if only you knew—12 and He will forgive your sins, admit you into Gardens graced with flowing streams, into pleasant dwellings in the Gardens of Eternity. That is the supreme triumph (61:10)

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/jihad-m...-of-the-grave/

http://www.meforum.org/646/the-qaradawi-fatwas

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...6422368&hl=da#

You bring up some very valid points, and a lot of good reading along with a video I have not yet seen. Unfortunately I cannot offer a complete response due to the fact its late and I have to be up early... I am also going away for the weekend and will hopefully have internet, but I cannot promise anything. I won't forget about you, and I hope I can continue the discussion.

[T-Rock]

You bring up some very valid points, and a lot of good reading along with a video I have not yet seen. Unfortunately I cannot offer a complete response due to the fact its late and I have to be up early... I am also going away for the weekend and will hopefully have internet, but I cannot promise anything. I won't forget about you, and I hope I can continue the discussion

No problem.…and thanks for taking a look. I will leave this last parting thought though, as the Encyclopaedia of Islam simply states:

The duty of the jihad exists as long as the universal domination of Islam has not been attained. Peace with non-Muslim nations is, therefore, a provisional state of affairs only; the chance of circumstances alone can justify it temporarily. Furthermore there can be no question of genuine peace treaties with these nations; only truces, whose duration ought not, in principle, to exceed ten years, are authorized. But even such truces are precarious, inasmuch as they can, before they expire, be repudiated unilaterally should it appear more profitable for Islam to resume the conflict.

http://www.meforum.org/2066/war-and-...eceit-in-islam

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by T-Rock

Furthermore there can be no question of genuine peace treaties with these nations; only truces, whose duration ought not, in principle, to exceed ten years, are authorized. But even such truces are precarious, inasmuch as they can, before they expire, be repudiated unilaterally should it appear more profitable for Islam to resume the conflict.

IMO, this observation is not especially insightful. The view that the world has always been (and shall always be) a dangerous place filled with hostile nations is hardly a novel concept in American diplomatic, military, or naval history.

[T-Rock]

IMO, this observation is not especially insightful.

Maybe you’re right but I have to wonder - would it have been so for Richard the Lionheart, Moshe Dayan, Yitzhak Rabin, or Bill Clinton
ClintonArafat.jpg

Intentional deceit is a well grounded doctrine of Islam which presents a range of ethical dilemmas.

Khayrul-Makereen...

[Richard]

...would it have been so for Richard the Lionheart...

Leaders are not very open to negotiation when you have executed several thousands of their captured soldiers being held as hostages because it would be awkward to continue to hold them as your forces advanced.

A side note - I have been to Trifels, the castle where Henry Vl held Richard for ransom - not a well restored castle but copies of Henry's sword, crown, sceptre, and orb as Emperor of the Holy Roman and Germanic Empires are on display there - and I've seen the originals on display in the Schatzkammer in Wien which also contains the Hapsburg collection of holy relics - including what were proclaimed to be pieces from the cross on which Christ was crucified, the Holy Lance used to pierce His side, the thorn of crowns, the cloth that covered the table at the last supper, and Christ's loincloth.

Those who wish to seek out the cause of miracles, and to understand the things of nature as philosophers, and not to stare at them in astonishment like fools, are soon considered heretical and impious, and proclaimed as such by those whom the mob adores as the interpreters of nature and the gods. For these men know that once ignorance is put aside that wonderment would be taken away which is the only means by which their authority is preserved.
- Spinoza

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
- Blaise Pascal

Richard

Originally Posted by T-Rock

No problem.…and thanks for taking a look. I will leave this last parting thought though, as the Encyclopaedia of Islam simply states:

The duty of the jihad exists as long as the universal domination of Islam has not been attained. Peace with non-Muslim nations is, therefore, a provisional state of affairs only; the chance of circumstances alone can justify it temporarily. Furthermore there can be no question of genuine peace treaties with these nations; only truces, whose duration ought not, in principle, to exceed ten years, are authorized. But even such truces are precarious, inasmuch as they can, before they expire, be repudiated unilaterally should it appear more profitable for Islam to resume the conflict.

http://www.meforum.org/2066/war-and-...eceit-in-islam

Few seconds I have before I jump in the car... No need to thank me, I enjoy hearing other opinions and reading and learning. This could have easily spun out of control due to the fact topics like this usually do, so it is nice to have a discussion without name calling and whatever else.

Chris

Originally Posted by T-Rock

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....." Surah 9:5

I think the passage can be better understood by the passages surrounding it and understanding the history surrounding this time. I think this link provides a very good answer and so I will quote it... not trying to be lazy, I just don't think I could word it any differently.

But very quickly, from what I know and have understood from other readings. Very briefly...

The Pagans and Muslims had a deal, Muslims would be allowed to complete their Hajj in order to complete the deal. The Pagans constantly refused the Muslims the chance to enter their Hajj, and therefore Surah 9:4 was written.
"(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught not aided anyone against you. So fulfill your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous."

Clearly the statement starts off by saying that one should not break the treaty and be faithful to their word.

Following the completion of the treaty, Surah 9:5 was written allowing the Muslims to revolt against their Pagan oppressors who were not allowing them to complete their Hajj.
"But whe the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans where ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem (of war); bit if they repent..." Surah 9:5 I dont want to take up more space, I'm sure you can find the Surah in your copy of the Qur'an.

Some state and some historians state, that war was not allowed in Muslim religion until it was declared in the Qur'an. Therefore this last Surah (9:5) states that the Muslims are allowed to declare war against the Pagans.


As for the video you posted which was linked to google... that was a helluva video. Just shows you the level of extremism, and honestly very scary movie to show how crazy some of these men and women are. Thank you for that link.

Thats all for now, sorry about the delay in getting back to you, -27 degree weather killed the internet and lots of hockey.




http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles...e_infidels.asp

Originally Posted by T-Rock

what role does al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh

[T-Rock]

I think the passage can be better understood by the passages surrounding it and understanding the history surrounding this time. I think this link provides a very good answer and so I will quote it... not trying to be lazy, I just don't think I could word it any differently.

Thanks for the article. It is prudent though to examine Islamic Law - what does it demand?

The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)

As Islam teaches no one really converts to Islam, they revert.

Infidel is a commonly used western word, nevertheless, lets examine their terminology.

* Kafir - Non-Muslim
* Kufr - Unbelief/infidelity
* Apostate - One who denies the ultimate truth of Islam.
* Apostacy - The act of any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, and leaves the faith.
(Reliance of the Traveller - index for above - see pages 1132,1170,1172,1207).

What does Islamic Law say ? (Shariah)

Unbelief (Kufr)

c2.5 The unlawful (haram) is what the Law giver strictly forbids. Someone who commits an unlawful act deserves punishment...

(3) and unbelief (kufr), sins which put one beyond the pale of Islam (as discussed at o8.7) and neccessitate stating the Testification of faith (Shahada)...

o4:17 There is no indemnity for killing a non-Muslim...
(pgs 588-595)

o8.7 (2) to intend to commit unbelief, even if in the future. And like this intention is hesitating whether to do so or not: one therby immediately commits unbelief:

(15) to hold that any of Allah's messengers or prophets are liars, or to deny their being sent:


(19) to be sarcastic about any ruling of the Sacred Law:
(these are but a few)

BACK TO o8.0

o8.1 When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed.

o8.2 In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (A: or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed

(Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law Pages 30-45, 588-595, 595-610).
http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Trave.../dp/0915957728

Edited to add:

o9.6 (A: though if there is no caliph (def: o25), no permission is required).

o9.8 The caliph (see above) makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians (N: provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya, def: o11.4) - which is the significance of their paying it, not the money itself-while remaining in their ancestral regions) (O: and the war continues) until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah Most High.

**"Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden--who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book--until they pay the poll tax out of hand are humbled"** (Koran 9:29)
(pg 602-603)

Following the completion of the treaty, Surah 9:5 was written allowing the Muslims to revolt against their Pagan oppressors who were not allowing them to complete their Hajj.

Unless all pagans play the game of Zakat and Salat, the forbidden months are four months in which no warfare was allowed. Once these months have passed, it becomes an obligation for Muslims to go out and kill some pagans in accordance with the Qur'an in its context - Muhammad himself fought many wars during those sacred months.


I'll offer you a challenge if you go on the Hajj unannounced with a visible cross around your neck and a bible in hand, I will buy you your favorite bottle of whiskey

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/swordverse.htm

Damn you and your good posts, sir . Now I have to think more and come up with a rebuttal. All very valid statemens, and again very informative links. I will try and get back to you tomorrow when I have some more time and not crammed with work. I will have to look at each individual statement and analyze it.

But I will say this, if I do take your challenge, forget the whiskey, just buy me a new Glock.

[T-Rock]

...sir

Hey....I'm just an old clump no need to call me sir...LOL

But I will say this, if I do take your challenge, forget the whiskey, just buy me a new Glock.

LOL...I'm not ashamed to say, I wouldn't go even with a Glock - the only way I would consider it... is to have an ODA watching my six, and even with that, on a pucker factor scale of 1-10, 10 would be the norm throughout the whole endeavor

You may find this interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfeYhzsPTsg

Originally Posted by T-Rock

Hey....I'm just an old clump no need to call me sir...LOL



LOL...I'm not ashamed to say, I wouldn't go even with a Glock - the only way I would consider it... is to have an ODA watching my six, and even with that, on a pucker factor scale of 1-10, 10 would be the norm throughout the whole endeavor

You may find this interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfeYhzsPTsg

Alright, then old clump it is Just kidding, we'll leave it at sir.

Haha, I meant if I actually accomplished the Hajj with a cross around my neck. Forget the whiskey, my new Glock is more important. Been saving for a while. Again good youtube video... letting it download as we speak.

Never commented on the youtube video. Very informative and I think it just further addresses the point that extremism is caused by taking the Qur'an's words and twisting them. There was a piece of information I read somewhere stating that the most dangerous terrorists who say they understand the Qur'an the best, really dont know anything about it due to the fact they never actually studied it. Most picked it up, read sections and didn't look into the history behind certain Surahs.

Again obviously though you make some incredibly valid points and can back it up with examples, which I still have to look at one by one, but I feel that with history, violence can be seen everywhere. For example in the Jewish religion, when we look at Vladamir Jabotinsky and his future aid in creating the Irgun. One of the very first terrorist organizations, aimed at fighting the British.

I'm not sure if you've read Qutb, but if you want to talk about a little bit of crazyness, here ya go. If you have read it then you know the influence he's had over Bin Laden. If you haven't had a chance to read it... it is a good number of pages and can tire the eyes by staring at a screen. I can print it for you and mail it if you'd like.

http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/Milestone/index.htm

[T-Rock]

Never commented on the youtube video. Very informative and I think it just further addresses the point that extremism is caused by taking the Qur'an's words and twisting them.

That's the whole point I think you're missing, anyone can twist religion to justify violence, yet...Shari'ah Law demands violence, it's in accordance with the Qur'an - no twisting whatsoever. Shari'ah Law is on the side of extremism, don't take my word for it though, examine Shari'ah Law for yourself - The principle source of Shari'ah is the Qur'an itself. It is the Islamic source material for the muslims Law, confirmed by any number of ulema.
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GLOSSARY/SHARIA.HTM

It guides the muslim in every aspect of life - listen to this guy (00:10 - 01:22 - 01:55)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qxjocm5fCc


This book pretty much covers Shar'iah, it is the book I quoted from in my previous posts - The Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Law - get one here:
http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Trave.../dp/0915957728


For the muslim, "it is imperative for every muslim to mold his or her life according to the teachings of the Qur'an. Our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "None of you can become a true believer until his desires become subordinate to what I have brought." and the true believers consider "the pathetic and disastrous condition of the Muslim Ummah throughout the world is due to the abandoning of the Qur'an by the Muslims. The attitude of indifference that we constantly show towards the last of the Allah's Revelations, along with our hypocritical lip-service, is tantamount to ridiculing it. Instead, we must clearly understand our responsibilities towards the Qur'an and try our very best in fulfilling them."
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...ah%2FLSELayout

I'm not sure if you've read Qutb, but if you want to talk about a little bit of crazyness, here ya go.

The last of the Allah's Revelations (Medina) are what extremists are abiding by - Sayyid Qutb barely scratches the surface, if you really interested in reading the craziness, check out the writings of: Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Sa’d, Wakidi, and Ibn Taymiyyah. Qutb's ideas came from the early ulema:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=ac...6c79a56c95bda8


This too is a worthwhile read:

http://www.strategycenter.net/docLib...emistJihad.pdf