Now I'm really going to stir things up: an SF-only thread - Page 4

7624U · 10-19-2009, 16:34

little Xmas spirit early.....

I have a list ! Im checking it twice ! I know if your selection was a roll of the dice! Ex SWC instructor back in Groupppp... I know if you once Quit! I know if you where late! I know if you where Weak or NTR so don't keep making the same mistake! Ex SWC instructor back in Groupppp... I don't care if you think your cool! I don't care if you think your great! Your just one in the number of Thousands ive seeeen graduate... Ex SWC instructor Back in Groupppp!

GET ER DONE!

**Roguish Lawyer** · 10-19-2009, 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7624U

little Xmas spirit early.....

I have a list ! Im checking it twice ! I know if your selection was a roll of the dice! Ex SWC instructor back in Groupppp... I know if you once Quit! I know if you where late! I know if you where Weak or NTR so don't keep making the same mistake! Ex SWC instructor back in Groupppp... I don't care if you think your cool! I don't care if you think your great! Your just one in the number of Thousands ive seeeen graduate... Ex SWC instructor Back in Groupppp!

GET ER DONE!

Wow, who knew there was such talent here?

Papa Zero Three · 10-19-2009, 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by longrange1947

Gentlemen, when they don't let a man quit then you have a problem. As far as getting rid of him at Group level, think again.

Once again longranger1947, you are balls on accurate.

Team sergeants have become baby sitters to the 18X and mass produced "graduates" that have been coming out of the course since the whole numbers game started. Once he is at Group getting rid of him is like trying to get rid of a GS position guy. They eat up time and create paperwork traditionally found in conventional units dealing with privates and their issues. From my first hand experience, 1 out of every 5 that show up are actually of the quality/character/fortitude that we used to get from the school house.

SkiBumCFO · 10-21-2009, 08:29

And all these years i had been saying I had graduated from the last easy class! guess i cant use that line anymore. I have little contact with the current graduates so cant say if the course is easier or not but I know one very talented 18x in 5th grouup that is highly intelligent and mature and even he says he wishes he had done some time with any line unit before going through the course. He feels there is a real taint with being an Xray.

alelks · 10-21-2009, 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkiBumCFO

And all these years i had been saying I had graduated from the last easy class! guess i cant use that line anymore. I have little contact with the current graduates so cant say if the course is easier or not but I know one very talented 18x in 5th grouup that is highly intelligent and mature and even he says he wishes he had done some time with any line unit before going through the course. He feels there is a real taint with being an Xray.

I can definitely agree with that statement. I came into SF straight off the street.

I was a PFC holding down an E7 slot on the team as an SF baby in the early 80s. Fortunately I had a strong Team Sergeant. I really needed some conventional time before going SF.

Mitch · 10-21-2009, 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle5US

about 10 years ago, there were a bunch of us bitching, whining and complaining because we thought standards had been lowered by lowering the GT score requirement and no longer haveing the mandatory pass swin test.

My .02

Eagle

So when I went through, the GT requirement was 110 - most guys I knew were well above that anyway, but - all the same, what did they lower it to, and what is it now.

Mitch

ZonieDiver · 10-21-2009, 15:15

Do they still have the SFBT (I think that was it, maybe it was SFQBT) or an equivalent? If it is not still around, when was it removed? That was the hardest test I ever took.

**The Reaper** · 10-21-2009, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch

So when I went through, the GT requirement was 110 - most guys I knew were well above that anyway, but - all the same, what did they lower it to, and what is it now.

Mitch

110, waiverable down to 100, and in my experience, that waiver is frequently granted.

TR

alelks · 10-21-2009, 16:43

Prime example back in 2005. I was on the ASOT detachment as a contract instructor. I taught back there from 91-94 as a green suit. Anyway we had 4 guys fail the rural portion miserably (my exercise by the way). I mean they only turned in 2 reports out of 11. They basically gave up just a few days into the exercise and sat in their hotel rooms the rest of the trip. Well the Bn Commander came down and wanted to talk to the committee. Of course he was trying to convince us to keep the 4 guys in the course because they needed grads. He gave an analogy that recently they had a guy at Scuba school who didn't pass the first gate but the instructors saw something in the guy so they let him continue. Long story short he said the guy graduated.

Well while he was telling this story I was biting my tongue. At one point he said "I know we are producing graduates that are not trained in what we want them to do but......

Well that's when I absolutely lost it. I couldn't believe I had just heard that out of a BN Commanders mouth. I flew off the handle as every hair on my body stood straight up.

I immediately stopped him and said "Sir, I can't believe I just heard what just came out of your mouth. We are producing graduates that are not trained in what we want them to do? You tell that to the little 6 year old boy who's father isn't going to be coming home because we didn't train him properly, you tell that to the family members of the rest of his team when they don't come home." Then I really lost it and said "F*^$ General _________ because we all know where this is coming from it's a numbers game. Here's what you need to do. You need to do what's professionally ethically and morally correct because if we let these guys continue through the course it's just flat out WRONG. What do you think the rest of the class is going to think? I can tell you exactly what they are going to think. They are going to think, well these guys didn't do a damn thing during rural and passed so why should I bust my ass during Urban.:

You know the funny thing is and this is what's a shame, there were only two or three out of about 16 instructors that were verbal about this. Everyone else was just sitting there saying absolutely nothing.

Well I figured as a contractor they were paying me for my expertise and opinion and I let him have it with both barrels.

I called the detachment commander up that weekend and apologized for getting so verbal and of course he told me "No, thank you because we as green suiters can't speak or mind like that and that's exactly what needed to be said".

After that the 4 guys departed the course.

And that my friend is why I never wanted to go any higher in rank than MSG. It just gets too political after that and I would have gotten into tons of trouble.

Mitch · 10-21-2009, 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

110, waiverable down to 100, and in my experience, that waiver is frequently granted.

TR

Well that's not good!

In my world these days in "Quality Assurance", many times when Specifications are waived in order to accept a slightly "Off" batch of parts, the ripple effect lasts for a long time in the form of Rework, Line Rejects, and increased Warranty Claims. These additional effects cause ultimaelty in increase in costs and delevery delays.

People aren't widgets, but the principle is probably very much the same.

longrange1947 · 10-21-2009, 19:47

The biggest problem is that there is a group of individuals that have not learned the difference between trained and qualified. We hear constantly that we need more trained individuals in the force. No, we need more qualified individuals and numbers are not qualified only trained. And we all know about illiterate grads of high school AND college that are functionally illiterate but they are "trained" in English.

BIG difference, but not realized by too many of the bean counters that only see numbers as hot bodies with a cert.

Now, understand this, there are great soldiers being turned over to the Groups, many have worked with them and that includes the older 18Xrays. But the number that are slipping through the cracks is alarming.

LongWire · 10-21-2009, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by longrange1947

The biggest problem is that there is a group of individuals that have not learned the difference between trained and qualified. We hear constantly that we need more trained individuals in the force. No, we need more qualified individuals and numbers are not qualified only trained. And we all know about illiterate grads of high school AND college that are functionally illiterate but they are "trained" in English.

BIG difference, but not realized by too many of the bean counters that only see numbers as hot bodies with a cert.

Now, understand this, there are great soldiers being turned over to the Groups, many have worked with them and that includes the older 18Xrays. But the number that are slipping through the cracks is alarming.

Well said Rick........Concur completely............

Richard · 10-22-2009, 04:57

Quote:

110, waiverable down to 100, and in my experience, that waiver is frequently granted.

MOO - but:

I knew guys who tested well and had excellent scores but could not reason their way out of an empty gunnysack -
I also knew guys who couldn't diagram a sentence but picked up languages like nobody's business just like some people cannot read music but can play anything they hear -
And I knew guys who were below the 110 IQ range (test wise) but had an affinity for doing things in an entirely common sensical way and had some sort of almost mythic sense of things mechanical - they made some of the most naturally talented and best 11Bs/12Bs/05Bs (now 18Bs/18Cs/18Es).

Guess what I'm trying to say is it takes all types to make a good ODA and the system (veteran instructors) should be responsive to recognizing the talent and potential to be able to do that or not.

Richard's $.02

longrange1947 · 10-22-2009, 06:24

Richard, agree, it is similar wiht natural shooters. They can hit almost anything under any circumstances. Don't try to make them better by "cleaning up their technique", it will onlty make them shoot worse becasue they will start to think about shooting.

However, they also can not teach shooting worth a hoot most the time either, as they do not know how or why then hit stuff.

Dozer523 · 10-22-2009, 06:50

Trained v qualifies. so simple.
Back in the late '80's there was a BIG push called Certification and Validation. Groups conducted Certifications -- a big skills lane, mission. PT test, Weapons qualification, 25 mi road march (we did that the night of a Lunar Eclipse -- had nothing better to do then watch it from start to finish. Oh, and sing 100 bottles of beer in the wall over and over

). It was pretty fun and challenging.
The idea was SOCOM wanted to have a say in Validating the readiness of the Teams it sent to the Unified Commands. Groups said they had to check the Teams first. In real life it meant if your ODA had not at least been Certified you were ineligible to leave Post. (didn't always work out that way, but should have.)

Great idea at the Group level, pretty hard to do at the SOCOM level. I bet the OpTempo today makes it impracticable.