Automatic Assault Rifle Schools

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by hoepoe

No real need for fully auto from an assualt rifle, be it LEO or Military.

Innacurate., collateral damage and blatent waste of ammunition. For fully auto in Mil you/we have the SAW/MAG. I cannot imagine a LEO situation that would require fully auto, even in a 'cover' situation, good cover fire could be achieved by consistant and controlled single shots fired rapidly as opposed to just letting loose.

One of the worst scenarios in a military situation i can think of is shooting fully auto whilst trying to cover ground. Probably all your rounds will be high and you'll be too concerned with controlling your rising muzzle than on what is in front of you.ie: the bad guy

IMO, fuly auto does however have a place, on the range for fun, it is fun :-)

My .02

Hoepoe

Hoepoe, From my experience Full auto is necessary, as with any tool one needs to undertand how to use it and when to use it.

As I mentioned earlier when walking point and when your position is being over runned is when we (Marines in my unit) felt full auto (full rock N roll) was needed mostly. In a ambush it is a matter of seconds that life is based on. A ambushed team can pull a reversal, but it is in the first few moments that it can be accomplished.

There is probably a time when spray and pray has a purpose. Some units would have a mad moment, it was more for mental health than anything else. Spraying the follage for a sniper is done. That was done when the general direction was thought to be known but exact location was not known. It was done to cover movement to reposition some Marines to take out the sniper or to sweep for the sniper.

I can not imagine those situations in a LE setting.

[hoepoe]

Good point Hollis.

In every situation i've been in including ambushes, i have not seen or felt that auto (other than the machine gunner) would have helped us or been suited in any way.

My point was not that fully auto is never neccessary, it was the the mcahine gunner was there for that.

Not knocking what you wrote, but putting my points forward.
Hoepoe

[Basicload]

TS, once again I shall offer an attempt at an explaination and an opposing view point.

Redi Mag. I use one. I have used it for several years.

What it is NOT. Faster than out of the pouch re-loads.

Why carry one? Magazine supported low-prone. Two mags are better than one for shooting stability.

Why would a cop carry one? I think that a redi-mag is a great item for "patrol carbines" because a uniformed officer grabs his rifle and he has 60 rounds handy. LEOs do not carry "belt kit" as a general rule.

This does not explain why an assaulter(SWAT) would need one, but for a uniformed patrol officer I think two mags on the rifle is a good thing.

While on the subject of worst nightmare active shooter patrol offier responses, I am an advocate of a plate carrier with three rifle mags and a first aid pouch in the trunk too. Nothing ninja sexy with wrap around cumberbunds but something simple. Over the head with two fastex around the sides is all they need and actually two unbuckled flopping plates are better than none.

The only consideration would be Back Face Deformation impacting metallic objects under the carrier such as badges, pins, and whistles. I consider the subsequent blunt force trauma to be the lesser of two evils.

Anyway I digress.

Redi-mag good tool but heavy. NOT Faster.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

Hoepoe, From my experience Full auto is necessary, as with any tool one needs to undertand how to use it and when to use it.

As I mentioned earlier when walking point and when your position is being over runned is when we (Marines in my unit) felt full auto (full rock N roll) was needed mostly. In a ambush it is a matter of seconds that life is based on. A ambushed team can pull a reversal, but it is in the first few moments that it can be accomplished.

There is probably a time when spray and pray has a purpose. Some units would have a mad moment, it was more for mental health than anything else. Spraying the follage for a sniper is done. That was done when the general direction was thought to be known but exact location was not known. It was done to cover movement to reposition some Marines to take out the sniper or to sweep for the sniper.

I can not imagine those situations in a LE setting.

I agree with you Hollis.

In the military there may be a time and a place for that sort of fire. But I’m thinking the American LEO’s don’t have the same sort of ROE we in the military adhere to and would not get away with such an action especially if innocent bipeds were injured or killed in the process.

You also touched on the reason that this sort of fire is sometimes effective; it has a psychological impact, on some, especially those, “Hollywood” cultured, criminals and crazies.

And while full auto fire from an assault will frighten some, I have serious concerns if and when American LE has to face 5-10 armed “crusaders” because that same psychological impact that affects our criminals, IMO, will not affect the “crusaders” in the same manner. (Not unless they have watched a few Arnold Schawrzenegger movies.) This might result in a very “hard learned” lesson in islamic terrorism.

This is yet another reason civilian “tactical” shooting schools, taught by those that have never themselves been in harms way or have never faced an armed crusader don’t have a clue what is actually required to face such sub-human species and prevail. This is where the surgical application of assault rifle fires will far exceed those full auto fires from the same weapons platforms and the main rationale for teaching accuracy over firepower.

My .02

TS

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Basicload

Why carry one? Magazine supported low-prone. Two mags are better than one for shooting stability.

BasicLoad,

"Magazine supported low-prone."

I cannot say I've ever heard that taught anywhere by anyone.

TS

Where's Gene Econ?




FM 3-22-9

RIFLE MARKSMANSHIP
M16A1, M16A2/3, M16A4 and M4 CARBINE


3-2. MALFUNCTIONS
Malfunctions are caused by procedural or mechanical failures of the rifle, magazine, or ammunition. Pre-firing checks and serviceability inspections identify potential problems before they become malfunctions. This paragraph describes the primary categories of malfunctions.

a. Failure to Feed, Chamber, or Lock. A malfunction can occur when loading the rifle or during the cycle of operation. Once the magazine has been loaded into the rifle, the forward movement of the bolt carrier group could lack enough force (generated by the expansion of the action spring) to feed, chamber, or lock the bolt (Figure 3-1).

(1) Probable Causes. The cause could be the result of one or more of the following:

Excess accumulation of dirt or fouling in and around the bolt and bolt carrier.
Defective magazine (dented, bulged, or a weak magazine spring).
Improperly loaded magazine.
Defective round (projectile forced back into the cartridge case, which could result in a stubbed round or the base of the previous cartridge could be separated, leaving the remainder in the chamber).
Damaged or broken action spring.
Exterior accumulation of dirt in the lower receiver extension.
Fouled gas tube resulting in short recoil.
A magazine resting on the ground or pushed forward could cause an improper lock.

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Basicload

Redi Mag. I use one. I have used it for several years.

BL - Not to worry - I use one too. Different strokes for different folks. Like everything they have pros and cons. I like the convenience of extra ammo immediately available. I'm not an action guy anymore so I don't keep a loaded kit handy - this lets me have extra ammo where I can get it if I'm checking strange noises in the dark. I don't like the weight and balance issues. Personally, I do think it's faster than extrating a fresh mag from a pouch - provided you're willing to allow the expended mag to drop. It's a lot better than taped mags or MagCinch "contraptions." Once it's mounted, it's there, the protrusion doesn't bother me, the option to carry extra ammo is always available, and I don't have to keep a mag in it 24/7. Keep an open mind, not all gadgets are worthless (though some are more about separating money from wallets than doing anything useful). My .02 - Peregrino

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Basicload

Why would a cop carry one? I think that a redi-mag is a great item for "patrol carbines" because a uniformed officer grabs his rifle and he has 60 rounds handy. LEOs do not carry "belt kit" as a general rule.

This I could support, but I'm thinking once I actually have to change mags, the SWAT or national guard better be closing on my position very fast.....

I'd rather carry one mag in weapon, pistol secondary. I would think be enough for most patrol officer situations.

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

This I could support, but I'm thinking once I actually have to change mags, the SWAT or national guard better be closing on my position very fast.....

I'd rather carry one mag in weapon, pistol secondary. I would think be enough for most patrol officer situations.

TS, I think part of the problem is most LEO do not have sufficient training and experience to have the confidence with their equipment as you have. I maybe a little old fashion, but unskilled people like having some sort of placebo that they believe will get them through one of those really nasty situation. That placebo maybe some sort of whistle or bells attached to their waist belt, firearm, lock in the trunk of their unit or hanging around their neck. A LA LEO once told me a Patrol officer was more a roving secretary than anything else.

The unkown is very scary to a newby, there are too many unknowns in their mind. Skill, training and experience will change that. Often most departments just don't have the money to commit their officers to that intensive type of training or feel it is not worth it in practical terms.

Also I think there is some wishful thinking associate with having "extra equipment". Some how regardless as bad as it gets, the person will always walk away if they have the right equipment.

This discussion has brought up some excellent points.

I do however have a difficult time giving any credit towards the Police Shotgun loaded with buckshot. Basically for the same reasons stated here with "full-auto" fire. We all know what happens when you fire a 00buck round at distances farther than 15-20 yards, VangComp Mods excluded. As LEO's we are mandated by P&P to account for everything that comes out of a barrel. Distances stated above spread the shot out so far in some cases as to making a "hit" with any of the shot a 50/50 chance.

An example would be, if I were to fire that shotgun on a slight angle say from the prone, up towards a subject, at distances greater than 15 yards. Will say for practical purposes that the BG is firing a full-auto weapon and attacking you as you arrive on scene. Allot of buckshot is going to go where I don't want it and people are going to be in danger of a incapacitating/lethal hit(s) in an urban enviroment. Other than for "special" situations (ie., SWAT), loading the shotgun with the first round as a slug may be a better choice. I am betting that unless the LEO has recieved some intense training or past experience with being shot at, that first round is going to miss. Anybody else agree?

What if during the North Hollywood shootout offciers did arrive with full auto weapons and when the BG's were standing in front of the part of the bank that had no windows or doors that from a rest, full auto fire wouldn't have either made them pause and/or obtain hits with their backstop being marble or cement?

[Basicload]

Actually the myth of never resting one's magazine on the ground was debunked several years ago and it is now taught during combat marksmanship in some of the "longer" SOF military training courses.

I'll admit that I thought that they were smoking crack when they told me to do it the first time. Kind of like thumbs forward.

The inclusion of forward grips on assault rifles has reduced the ability to use external forearm support (sandbags, etc.) and this has got more and more people going to the magazine for support. Two magazines touching the ground provides less lateral movement. The magazine supported position becomes even more advantagous during high heart rate "stress shooting" events because there is a greatly reduced vertical movement from pulse rate transfer to the weapon associated with prone unsupported or sling supported fire.

I'm not saying that its the end all be all, however when the situation allows it, I will use magazine supported position.

[Basicload]

The malfunction stated in FM 3-33-9 is a result of the steel magazine catch warping the square magazine "notch" on the left side of the magazine. This is due to excessive use and/or pressure to the magizing while inserted in the rifle over time.

Normally the springs in an AR Mag will go bad causing failure to feed "bolt over ride" long before the magazine itself is warped.

in either case malfunctions are directly related to magazine related problems.

Proper inspection and replacement of the magazines makes this a non-issue. OKAY or colt magazines ONLY (alluminimum).

The use of steel magazines also make this a non-issue because the magazine will not warp.

Either way I have never had a failure to feed or lock while shooting from the magazine supported position. YMMV

[NousDefionsDoc]

This is an excellent freakin' thread.

[BMT (RIP)]

I believe AM,QRQ30 and a few others here went to AAR School and the mother lasted a year. Maybe they will Jump in with their ideas. ;-)

BMT

[Gene Econ]

[QUOTE=Team Sergeant]BasicLoad, "Magazine supported low-prone."
I cannot say I've ever heard that taught anywhere by anyone. TS Where's Gene Econ?

Yo TS -- I was just practicing what I preach today -- 80 shots at 600 yards.

Some guys jam the magazine into the ground and use it as a kind of monopod. Some don't. It isn't any sort of doctrine from what I can tell.

Guys with the readi mag devices like this position from what I have observed. Makes for a stable position as you have two magazines touching the ground instead of one.

Some say that placing pressure on the magazine in this manner makes for malfunctions. I don't think so as I have seen more than a few guys use this position and haven't seen any more malfunctions with them as with guys who keep the bottom of the magazine off the ground. A 30 round magazine protrudes so much that it is almost impossible to keep the bottom of it off of the ground when shooting from the prone.

Our top shooter in a course we are running right now uses his magzine as a rest on the ground when he goes prone unsupported. Haven't seen one malfunction.

I kind of look at this issue like this. The rifle and magazine were made for combat conditions. No way both could be that sensitive to the magazine being jammed into the magazine well that any extra upward pressure would cause malfunctions. Doesn't make sense to me in terms of intended purpose of the rifle and magazine which is combat.

Gene

[gtcrispy]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

BasicLoad,

"Magazine supported low-prone."

I cannot say I've ever heard that taught anywhere by anyone.

TS

Where's Gene Econ?

We used this during the Phase 2 SUT range portion.