Point Shooting

[dr. mabuse]

Good reminder frostfire. I occasionally get a question in class about point shooting and remind them it was popular when I was 6 or 7 years old. We've moved on to something better now....

Found this site ping ponging around the web.

I am interested in Point Shooting, and plan to start a discussion of it for use at CQ.

Been discussing it and getting cussed at for bringing it up for around 10 years or so. As such, I have become thick skinned over the years, but still can be crabby.

My interest is narrow - my focus is only on aiming a handgun (pistol) at CQ (less than 20 feet), where if you are going to be shot, there is the greatest chance of that happening. (80%.)

Those are police based numbers, but probably have applicability to SOF.

My interest is also in improving the hit rate in CQ situations, which is less than 20%. Again that's a police based number, but one has to go with what's available.

..........

In previewing this post, I note that my sig line is showing. I tried to blank it out, but have not been able to do that. If it is not in accord with your rules, please erase it. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

I fixed the sig line. Funny, just happens to be a thread on point shooing. Next time you cite statistics, especially weapons statistics you'd better provide a source also. You might be the only individual left on the planett that actually teaches "point shooting".

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...ead.php?t=1559

Thanks I will add a response to it rather than here.

Just a short note about it for now:

I noted that most of the thread was from 2004, and the focus was on Applegate. I got stuff and quotes and selections from his book in articles. There also is Quick Kill, and Lou Chiodo's (Calif CHP) Threat Focus shooting, which was mentioned.

The US Army recommends Isso shooting at 15 feet or less and for shooting at night.

I'll be happy to add in my articles to the PS thread, plus stats and studies that back up what I say. I also have pics and videos on it. All the videos are on YouTube.

As to me, I don't teach Point Shooting. The method I use is so simple, most anyone can do it with little or no training, and it can be maintained with little or no practice. And it's free.

I was told to use by a WWII Sgt when shooting my grease gun from the hip back in 54. And the US Army in its combat pistol manual as late as 2003, says it works.

But and however; accurate Point Shooting just doesn't happen by magic. You have to know how to do it. And practice can improve performance.

Thanks again for your response.

Some basic info on why you should learn AIMED Point Shooting or P&S.

Sight Shooting has been proven by studies not to be applicable or effective in close quarters self defense situations where most all gunfights occur, and where there is the greatest chance of being shot and/or killed. (If you are going to be shot and or killed, there is an 80% chance that it will happen at less than 20 feet.)

The still relevant NYPD SOP 9 study of thousands and thousands of police combat cases, found that Officers did not use Sight Shooting in most all cases. They reverted to untrained "instinctive" shooting.

They also with few exceptions, shot with the strong hand.

The gunfight hit rate at CQ is less than 20% and its been that bad for years, and years, and years. (So much for shooting as you train.)

As to using the sights, scientific studies have established that it is not possible to use them in close quarters life threat situations. In those situations, adrenaline is dumped into our system. And it in turn, relaxes the ciliary muscle of the eyes to enhance far vision for focusing on the threat. That unfortunately, causes the loss of near vision which is necessary for focusing on the sights.

As such, if a person does not know another shooting method that is accurate at close quarters, they will have no effective means of self defense in those situations where there is the greatest likely hood of being shot and/or killed.

Sight Shooting has been taught to be used in those situations for over the past 100 years, but sadly, there are no recognized studies or stats to prove either its applicability or effectiveness in CQ self defense situations. If proof exists, including pics or videos of it being used effectively, I will gladly post it to a page that awaits that info. Been looking for some for the past ten years, and there is none, nada. You got some? Please let me know.

Also, according to the literature, in life threat situations (CQ) both eyes will be open and you will be threat focused.

You will have a crush grip on your gun so you can forget squeezing the trigger, or holding your thumb without pressure against the gun, or keeping you index finger aloof from the gun so it can be used to manipulate the trigger, as marksmanship requirements dictate and competition pros emulate..

And if the lighting is bad and your gun and sights are dark and the target is wearing black (and possibly moving), how will one see the FS to complete the FSP mantra.

.........................

I readily agree that SEAL training or SF training could be such that operators could reflexively shoot and hit under any and all conditions at CQ.

But all soldiers don't carry pistols or are they trained to the level that allows them to shoot someone between the eyes without fail in very adverse conditions.

....................

So what's one to do if they are in a close quarters situations and their armament is a pistol.

Well there is what I call AIMED Point Shooting which provides one with automatic and correct sight alignment plus an automatic and correct sight picture, both of which are necessary to hit a target.

Basically the index finger is placed along the side of the gun, pointed at a target, and the trigger is pulled with the middle finger.

Here is what the US Army says about our ability to point at things. It is found in the US Army's Field Manual 3-23.35: Combat Training With Pistols M9 AND M11 (June,2003).

"Everyone has the ability to point at an object.

"When a soldier points, he instinctively points at the feature on the object on which his eyes are focused. An impulse from the brain causes the arm and hand to stop when the finger reaches the proper position.

"When the eyes are shifted to a new object or feature, the finger, hand, and arm also shift to this point.

"It is this inherent trait that can be used by a soldier to rapidly and accurately engage targets."

The method is not precision shooting, but it works, and can be learned and maintained with little or no training.*

It's not a bar to using the sights or FSP if there is time for that and conditions are such that the sights can be seen and employed using hand eye coordination to align the sights correctly and place them/it on the target correctly.

P&S works when moving, on moving targets, and even on aerials.

Because of a flaw in the design of the slide stop pin of the 1911, it shouldn't be used with a 1911. The original military manual on the 1911 (published in 1912), and other military manuals up until the 1940's cautioned against using it with the 1911. [[ "The trigger should be pulled with the forefinger. If the trigger is pulled with the second finger, the forefinger extending along the side of the receiver is apt to press against the projecting pin of the slide stop and cause a jam when the slide recoils."]] As such, and since the 1911 was the standard issue sidearm of US Forces until 1985, there are no doubts lots of military folk who don't know about the method, or will caution against its use.

Why the military did not make a modest and simple fix of the 1911, so its combat forces would have the option of using the method which the US Army says works, in close quarters life threat situations where those forces would be in the greatest danger of being shot and/or killed, is beyond me.

I made a short video of it titled Survival Point Shooting and its on YouTube if your interested. It shows it being used at the range, when moving, and shooting at aerials (pop cans tossed in the air - don't shoot at aerials with a firearm unless you are on an appropriate range).

I understand that some of you are against using Point Shooting, but if it can help you shoot to kill more effectively and reliably under most any condition, what's the problem.

I can provide more info on this or aspects of it such as the grip used which is a strong 4 fingered grip that results in a strong and level shooting platform. It's no sissy target shooting range grip. You can shoot to the front or side, make front punches, elbow smashes, and even use your forearm and the gun as a crude battle axe if needed.

I was told to use it by a WW II Sgt back in 1954 or 55 when shooting my grease gun from the hip. It worked then, and still does.

[The Reaper]

And yet no professional shooter in the world I have seen uses this technique in competition, or in combat.

Why do you suppose that is?

TR

[dr. mabuse]

*

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by dr. mabuse

Never met a QP so far that taught or was a huge fan of trying to master 2 response systems/techniques for critical open loop high-stress events, but I guess anything is possible.

You have come far young Jedi! And no - it isn't possible that I'm going to be teaching multiple response techniques. I have a hard enough time staying proficient with one.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

And yet no professional shooter in the world I have seen uses this technique in competition, or in combat.Why do you suppose that is?

TR

The world is full of amateurs......

5shot,
You may want to read this entire thread before you defend point shooting. We are not amateurs.
Team Sergeant

[Dusty]

I'd like to see stats on the drop-out rate of pointshooting afficionados during two-way target practice...

P&S has been around since 1835. If you want, I will post a "Chronology of P&S" or you can google for it.

As I mentioned before the US Army was aware of it, but cautioned against its use with the 1911 in the original manual on the 1911 published in 1912 and in several other manuals that I am aware of up until the 1940's. [[The 1911 has a design flaw which prevents the user from using P&S which the US Army also says works, in those situations where there is the greatest likely hood of being shot and/or killed. As such the user is left with no fast, accurate, and reliable means or method of shooting. To bad a simple fix was not made alla the 1911A1. The Tokarev of similar design has a simple fix. If your interested google "The 1911 - A fatal Flaw".]]

P&S is for use at CQB distances where there is the greatest chance of being shot or killed [if you are going to be shot or killed, there is an 80 % chance that it will happen at less than 20 feet.]

It also is not a bar to using the sights if they can be seen and employed for longer or precision shooting.

I understand that competition shooters use or used to use the Weaver, which really is not applicable for CQB according to the literature.

They also use a "marksman grip" wherein the thumb either is not against the gun or doesn't press against it, alla Brian Enos and Dave Sevigny, which also is not applicable for CQB as you will have a crush grip on your gun according to the literature. There's an article and picture of their range grip in an article in Handguns Magazine.

As to this thread, I read it twice, and even took notes along the way. IMO, in only the last few pages was there a "current" discussion, so I just jumped in with both feet.

..........

Can someone fix or erase my sig line. It should read: A pistol is not a rifle, so why shoot one like it is. Thanks.

Thanks for all of your comments, I expected much more flame.

Also, anyone know of or got pics and videos of Sight Shooting or FSP being used effectively in CQB?

Should be thousands, as a member here said in an e-mail, and I agree since SS has been taught for 100+ years, yet I have never seen one.

I have seen the pic of Jack Ruby shooting Oswald using AIMED Point Shooting or P&S as I call it, and the one of a guard using a two handed isso + point shooting while moving, who shoots and kills a robber, and one of a Chinese lady cop using point shooting with her strong hand, and shooting a hostage taker. He falls down and back, and she shoots him a couple of more times for good measure.

Originally Posted by The Reaper

And yet no professional shooter in the world I have seen uses this technique in competition, or in combat.

Why do you suppose that is?

TR

Lee Marvin used Point Shooting in the Dirty Dozen, he hit everything or it at least appeared so.

[Dusty]

I'm thinking about switching over to "sideways point and shoot" cuz da boyz be bad wid dat style, nomesane?

[7624U]

5Shot
Point shooting might be fine for police shooting, on unarmored people at close range. But now days with the high percentage of body armor on the battle field along with some no fail missions the military has, You will have to use your sights or your going to A. miss, B.have no effect on his body armor or C. worst case shoot a hostage.
Police officers do not know the gunfight is going to happen most the time.
On this side of the spectrum we expect the gunfight and leverage our body armor, speed, surprize, violence of action and numbers.

I will admit not so long ago it was viable when mass human wave attacks happen and I would revert back to pointing and shooting in that situation but for now I will use my front sight post.
You might want to look into Swat shootings also and see if they used Sights or point shooting.

[Team Sergeant]

5shot,
No one is ripping your head off here out of respect for your age.
That said you've now heard from a few Special Forces soldiers that we do not use/teach point shooting anymore and for the same reason we don't use six-shooters in combat. We have evolved in our techniques.

There's plenty posted on here about marksmanship, you might want to do more reading and less posting.

Team Sergeant

Thank you.

I can shoot aerials with a pistol, know rifle quick kill (with airsoft), and shot expert with an M1.

Thank you for your responses.

The information is out there for inquiring minds.

Think I've used enough of your space. So, bye.

Have a good new year and stay safe.