Are we at war with Islam?

[PRB]

Originally Posted by MR2

Remember: Evil exists because good men don't kill the government officials committing it -- Kurt Hofmann.

If evil is inherent within a religious/social conscript how does one kill that except from within?

[Hacksaw]

Weren’t they the pro American capitals loving Muslims we supported. Didn’t we teach them to kill the soviets? Didn’t the corrupt men out of that origination such as UBL take advantage of a war torn poor nation and create a terrorist organization. ITS funny how afghan Muslims during the cold war were the good guys. But now since they spiraled out of control ALL Muslims are bad. It’s not a group which prosecutes its own people to keep them scared for their lives BUT ALL Muslims. It’s not a group that hides in Mosques and Hospitals and schools BUT ALL Muslims. It’s not a group that puts acid on little Muslim girls trying to get to school (GR wrote)

I can respect that fact that GR keeps coming back with his opinion but this is getting old. GR, get a Koran,a Reliance of the Traveler, copy of Milestones and read the damn things. What you are saying is apostasy in the Islamic world, period. You're tenacity is appreciated, however, at this point in the debate you need to have a minimal understanding of YOUR religion and you clearly do not. Web site after web site have been posted here for your benefit which I assume you have not looked at.

I agree with a previous post, if they start blowing up mosques (they being anyone other than muslims) I will be celebrating with a beer....and a pulled pork sandwich.

[Trapper John]

Originally Posted by PRB

If evil is inherent within a religious/social conscript how does one kill that except from within?

You raise a very good point there Bro! And that brings me to a discussion I had with 98G this afternoon. Let's consider the possibility that the majority of Muslims do not take the teachings of Islam literally- they are "culturally" Muslim. They want to live their lives in peace and strive for the same things we all do. As a case in point, are all Catholics literal practicing Catholics? No, of course not. Many make life choices that are not in keeping with Catholic doctrine - they are Catholics by "culture". Could the same be true for Muslims? Logic would say yes.

If we accept the notion of "cultural" Muslims, then do they not represent a huge opportunity for us? What I am suggesting is that in this line of thinking "cultural" Muslims can be viewed as potential assets to rise up against the Islamic extremists to quash them with extreme prejudice. Isn't this exactly what we do in SF? Are we missing a force multiplication opportunity here? Maybe we have been looking at this whole issue through the wrong end of telescope?

Let's try out some new thinking on the issue and see where that leads.

[PRB]

I'd say there is some possibility to that except that Muhammad covered that base a long time ago.
Any Muslim that takes the side of a non Muslim over another Muslim commits sin...it is takfir....there is no exclusion for the subject matter.
Any Muslim that chooses non Muslim friends over Muslim friends is committing a sin.
It has to come from within Islam and those Muslims must, in fact, ignore or change their own doctrine.......throw out large elements of the Koran/Sira/Hadith and change their view/concept of Muhammad's actions as 'perfect' under any circumstance.
Fat chance.

[Hacksaw]

When a cultural Catholic suddenly embraces his or her religion they do not blow up innocent (or guilty) people, commit suicide, throw acid on people, etc, etc. This can be said for EVERY other religion with the exception of islam. There is nothing in Christian, Jewish, Buddist doctrine that compels believers to harm, in any way, those that disagree with them. Sure, you can be a pain in the ass and generally unpleasent to be around but you CANNOT kill others, pretty simple rules. Additionally, to answer why there has been no uprising in the muslim religion against these terrorist groups is because they comply with Sharia law, to protest against them would be in direct violation of that law as well as the koran. If you want to do the SF thing, you would convert them to another....any other, religion.

[Hacksaw]

Should have just waited for PRB to make his post.

[GiveRespect]

I try to make points, but at the end of the day almost all of you reply to me with "Islam sucks balls, Muhammad can blow my pet fish named Muhammad sucks” I think I have many valid points and they are almost never answered ,so I don’t know what to write anymore . I understand what the general attitude is, and it won’t change. At all. So in conclusion all Muslims are terrorists and all Muslims who aren’t fighting are actually inactive jihadists. We must put all Muslim citizens in internment camps to keep them from turning on us. Also, we must cut foreign aid to prominently Muslim countries because they will use those resources to attack us. Finally we must nuke Mecca to stop this plague known as Islam. And man when the mosques do get blown up I’m going to celebrate by eating a pig … Alive. And call it”Muhammad Gives Great Rim Jobs” (no fatwa’s were issued in the making of this post).
------STILL GOD BLESS AMERICA AND ITS TROOPS
------ WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO TOP 5 HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMP OF ALL TIME
------ GIVE RESPECT OUT

[PRB]

GR,
You never addressed any of the comments I made, you only made very general points we've all heard before.
I don't believe you really have an in depth understanding of your own Religion.

If you understood the relationship of the Koran to the Hadith/Sira and how that is interpreted by the gold standard of Islamic jurisprudence (Al Azhar University as an example) you wouldn't have asked some of the questions or made the 'points' you did.

Some of us speak Arabic and have worked in Islamic countries for nigh on to 30 years.
These are not abstract observations.

[PSM]

Originally Posted by GiveRespect

I try to make points, but at the end of the day almost all of you reply to me with "Islam sucks balls, Muhammad can blow my pet fish named Muhammad sucks” I think I have many valid points and they are almost never answered ,so I don’t know what to write anymore . I understand what the general attitude is, and it won’t change. At all. So in conclusion all Muslims are terrorists and all Muslims who aren’t fighting are actually inactive jihadists. We must put all Muslim citizens in internment camps to keep them from turning on us. Also, we must cut foreign aid to prominently Muslim countries because they will use those resources to attack us. Finally we must nuke Mecca to stop this plague known as Islam. And man when the mosques do get blown up I’m going to celebrate by eating a pig … Alive. And call it”Muhammad Gives Great Rim Jobs” (no fatwa’s were issued in the making of this post).
------STILL GOD BLESS AMERICA AND ITS TROOPS
------ WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO TOP 5 HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMP OF ALL TIME
------ GIVE RESPECT OUT

You are 18. We are only asking you to defend what is written in your Holy Book. You are here for a reason. It's up to you to tell us what that reason is. And, tell us what this means: "Confused young men make the best......"

Pat

[GiveRespect]

GR,
You never addressed any of the comments I made, you only made very general points we've all heard before.
I don't believe you really have an in depth understanding of your own Religion.

If you understood the relationship of the Koran to the Hadith/Sira and how that is interpreted by the gold standard of Islamic jurisprudence (Al Azhar University as an example) you wouldn't have asked some of the questions or made the 'points' you did.

Some of us speak Arabic and have worked in Islamic countries for nigh on to 30 years.
These are not abstract observations. ‘

I guess I don’t have a true understanding. I guess I’m a middle class white boy that doesn’t truly understand what is going on in the world. Most of you have first hand experienced I can only dream about. I’m tired that this is going nowhere. Maybe it’s both.

‘I agree with a previous post, if they start blowing up mosques (they being anyone other than muslims) I will be celebrating with a beer....and a pulled pork sandwich.’
You’re just a plain ignorant. I don’t know what to say anymore but I get it. I truly do.
‘ You are 18. We are only asking you to defend what is written in your Holy Book. You are here for a reason. It's up to you to tell us what that reason is. And, tell us what this means:’Im actually here, because I wanted to be here. No one forced me (not saying you did).I failed, I tired and I failed . I TRIED.I really did .I thought I explained …some-thing but I failed.
‘And, tell us what this means: Confused young men make the best......"
You earned the tab. You tell me
Give all of my respect to Trapper john, you’re the man .Not excluding anyone here even you hacksaw, like you care, you all are truly men among men who deserve the respect of all Americans. And most importantly, thank you. You are the men people should look up to not Kayne West or Lindsey lohans coke addiction .
In the end I sum up my opinion with
'Only idiots simplify to justify stupidity'-GiveRespect (actually quoted myself..kinda weird)

---ALLAH BLESS ALL THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND ITS TROOPS
---BOXING>MMA
--- GIVE RESPECT OUT

[PSM]

Originally Posted by GiveRespect

You earned the tab. You tell me.

No I didn't. I didn't even try. And I wouldn't if I had it to do over again. I had other plans. I respect these guys as brothers-in-arms as they do me, fly-boys, armor, artillery, and supply. It's the uniform, not the patch or tab.

Buck up! Support us, or join us. Your choice.

Pat

p.s.: I joined the Army when I was 17.

[Trapper John]

Originally Posted by PRB

I'd say there is some possibility to that except that Muhammad covered that base a long time ago.
Any Muslim that takes the side of a non Muslim over another Muslim commits sin...it is takfir....there is no exclusion for the subject matter.
Any Muslim that chooses non Muslim friends over Muslim friends is committing a sin.
It has to come from within Islam and those Muslims must, in fact, ignore or change their own doctrine.......throw out large elements of the Koran/Sira/Hadith and change their view/concept of Muhammad's actions as 'perfect' under any circumstance.
Fat chance.

You are absolutely correct, IF this is a static culture. I am questioning that view of Islam as static. Are we not seeing some evidence of changes in the culture today? Doesn't GR represent an example of a Muslim that does not take the tenets of Islam literally and inappropriate today? Didn't Christianity evolve from the days of the Inquisition? Couldn't Islam fracture into different sects just as Christianity did? As I asked earlier, are we missing an opportunity here to exploit and hasten a cultural change? If we continue to view this as a binary in black or white terms doesn't that create a no-win scenario?

Not too many things that I can think of are truly static and certainly not a culture of human beings.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by GiveRespect

I try to make points, but at the end of the day almost all of you reply to me with "Islam sucks balls, Muhammad can blow my pet fish named Muhammad sucks” I think I have many valid points and they are almost never answered ,so I don’t know what to write anymore . I understand what the general attitude is, and it won’t change. At all. So in conclusion all Muslims are terrorists and all Muslims who aren’t fighting are actually inactive jihadists. We must put all Muslim citizens in internment camps to keep them from turning on us. Also, we must cut foreign aid to prominently Muslim countries because they will use those resources to attack us. Finally we must nuke Mecca to stop this plague known as Islam. And man when the mosques do get blown up I’m going to celebrate by eating a pig … Alive. And call it”Muhammad Gives Great Rim Jobs” (no fatwa’s were issued in the making of this post).
------STILL GOD BLESS AMERICA AND ITS TROOPS
------ WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO TOP 5 HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMP OF ALL TIME
------ GIVE RESPECT OUT

That is not what has been said, and you are not exactly showing respect at this point.

Answer the questions you have been asked and participate in a discussion maturely without the hyperbole and exaggeration or go elsewhere to troll.

Frankly, you are coming across more as a petulant, immature teenager than a muslim.

Argue using the facts, not your emotions.

And be respectful of others and their opinions.

TR

[FlagDayNCO]

I have to believe there are many that are not following the rules. This has been going on for decades and the recent uprisings in the last decade are examples of this.

Many Middle Eastern nations have been allowing more Western (can't say Christian) dress, play, work habits as a means to satisfy the people. This has been the younger generations, but think that this is now a generation plus in the making. Remember Iraq before our involvement? I recall Iraq had the highest percentage of population of women and men following Western dress and styles.

The Muslim Brotherhood and many of the related splinter groups have been trying to reel this in. AQ was one extreme group (in our eyes), but they see themselves as Conservatives- wanting to follow the written rules with devastating effect to non-believers. The battles going on are not an "Arab Uprising", as much as it is the people fighting against MB types that want to keep the population opprressed.

I guess Progressivism can have a positive effect, when true believers of Islam can not keep the masses from shifting away.

It is also another glaring example of where our National Leaders are on the wrong side of the battle. In plain sight, Dear Leader has been supporting the MB and conservative Islam. Our national interests should have us supporting more moderate thinking.

Egypt is an example where American and Western influence have done America well, until a few years ago. Our military training influenced the thinking of Officers within their Army, as well as their government. Attached to the FID mission were numerous State projects and other forms of economic partnering, but we also gained a trading partner that was one of the top consumers of US manufactured goods.

Hearts and minds.

No, I do not doubt there are many that want to kill us. I have fought in enough of those countries to know this first hand. What we do know is there are many people in those countires that want nothing more than to live a peaceful life and detest the elements within their country that cause the problems, many times under the guise of "true Islam".

[FlagDayNCO]

My browser wasn't updated when I replied, so here is more.

Doc Illinois posts a very good point. Liberal Muslims.

I believe they are like Liberals in our society. A lot of voice but as the work (fight) becomes tougher, the numbers start to diminish.

The tough crowd of Islam happens to be the gang that is willing to fight and kill. I'm not too sure the moderates will ever be able to diminish their numbers or influence. There needs to be a major elimination of those hard liners, and trying to wait them out with pacification can never work.

The big hurdle we also face is we are not "from there" and are injecting ourselves into their society. That is their perspective.

We also have to convince our own people the dangers of allowing Islam to leak into our governments and society. This is a cancer.

Is there a way to influence more of the moderate Muslims to eliminate the hard liners? Right now, kinetic is the only thing to convince them.