Tactics gone wrong - Page 7

112thSOLCA · 10-08-2006, 09:24

TR and all
Lest you start to think I am a bleeding heart liberal or anti-second amendment.

I will concede to all that a properly trained teacher with a weapon in certain scenarios could prevent a school shooting. I agree this would be a quick and relatively economical approach to bolstering school security in the short term. And, yes I know many teachers that would be willing, capable and up to the challenge.

However, I am not convinced that is a feasible solution for numerous reasons. For example, in my town I would expect overwhelming resistance to the idea from teachers unions, school boards and parents (and I live in a bright red region of a red state). Blue states wouldn’t stand a chance.

Furthermore, I am not the least bit convinced arming and training a select group of teachers could ever provide an adequate level of security to handle the real threat for which we should be preparing.

Quote:

Originally posted by The Reaper
I am not sure where your kids go to school and what your teachers are like....

Sir - My son is currently finishing up his second year at the University of Pineland, a small but extremely prestigious school in the Piedmont region of NC.

**Razor** · 10-08-2006, 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by uboat509

I think that people here are ignoring two important issues in this debate. The first is the extreme rarity of this type of incident. How many of these have we had versus how many schools there are?

Bro, do you pay a monthly premium for auto insurance, or homeowner's insurance in case your house catches fire or is blown down by a tornado? What's the likelyhood you'll need any of this coverage ever? Regardless, we pay a great deal of money to insurance companies 'just in case'. I've learned the hard way that statistics are merely indicators, not hard truths, and the costs can be very, very high should they fail. I like the idea of tools to help mitigate my (and my family's) assumed risk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 112thSOLCA

For example, in my town I would expect overwhelming resistance to the idea from teachers unions, school boards and parents (and I live in a bright red region of a red state). Blue states wouldn’t stand a chance.

But you don't know for sure until you ask, do you? The worst thing that can happen is they'll say 'no', and if they do, what did you lose from how things are currently being run?

bost1751 · 10-08-2006, 19:22

This has turned into a very interesting thread. I personally I'm mixed on allowing teachers to carry or not. the reasons have all been covered in previous posts. COLAWMAN, not all all of CO LEOs have the luxury your agency provides. The reasons, IMO, are bullshit-money and time from assigned duties. the next thing said is liability. guess that means Troopers are allowed to shoot once a year so the agency can cover their ass on liability. It is a contidiction IMO.

Back to the teacher issue. This is a tough one for a myriad of reasons. I spent over 20 years in SF and only 9 as a LEO. The first two issues screamed will be properly trained and equipt and liability. The first will include funding for the guns, ammunition, training, requalification, added time that will cost the school more money for teachers salaries, etc. and the list goes on. the second, liability will be a nightmare. Legislatures, teachers unions at all levels, citizens and even someones dog will scream, cry, bitch, moan, and no telling what else until the youngest person on this site has retired. To sum all this up it will be one hell of a bucket of worms.

Peronally I would like to see selcted teachers and employees in every school armed. the question how do we do it? Keep in mind all the crap I mentioned above that has and will continue to evolve as our society and media continue growing more and more liberal. Lawyers will be the winners in this entire mess because all they see is $$$.

I enjoyed reading all the posts. Most have great ideas and thoughts. For the time being to eliminate the current SRO program becasue most assigned to it are worthless cops assigned as an SRO to get them out of the way anyway It may not be a bad idea to follow the US Marshalls Court Security Officer program to some extent. There would have to be some major changes but I think a program of this nature could work in the transition period, so to speak.

I am glad my kids are grown and not in school anymore, but now I have grandchildren that will start in school in a year or two. That will be a new ball game for me.

stakk4 · 10-09-2006, 17:40

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/09/mis....ap/index.html

Teen takes assault rifle to school du jour. Luckily it jammed very quickly. What's with psychos and schools lately?

Has anyone heard of these sorts of things happening in schools on post? (any post?) Thanks in advance.

S

**The Reaper** · 10-09-2006, 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by stakk4

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/09/mis....ap/index.html

Teen takes assault rifle to school du jour. Luckily it jammed very quickly. What's with psychos and schools lately?

S

Psycho sees crazy stuff all over TV and the 15 minutes of fame the shooter gets.

Psycho decides to go do the same thing as a copycat

Simple. Stop making them famous. Kill them quick and bury them the same day in an unmarked grave.

TR

x SF med · 10-10-2006, 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Simple. Stop making them famous. Kill them quick and bury them the same day in an unmarked grave.

TR

Hear! Hear!! Well said, TR - once again, we have been media'd into a situation that brings fame to these unstable people, and begs for copy catting, so they are famous for a few minutes.

10-10-2006, 08:23

Razor and TR,

You both are right on the money. Right after Columbine we inherited the "Active Shooter" in a school methodology. We practiced it all day in in-service. That was it! We were told there was no money and that we had the basic fundementals down to where we could react. This was over six years ago.

My solution would be to put "BRAVE" and "Tactically oriented" LEO's inside the schools with the proper weapons to get the job done. Maybe Brave is not the word I am looking for here, but I have personally seen way too many cowards in Law Enforcement.

**Team Sergeant** · 10-10-2006, 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAB32

My solution would be to put "BRAVE" and "Tactically oriented" LEO's inside the schools with the proper weapons to get the job done. Maybe Brave is not the word I am looking for here, but I have personally seen way too many cowards in Law Enforcement.

I think its might be the only possible approach to our kids safety without turning the schools into prisons, armed school security.

I'd do it for the salary of a teacher.....

10-10-2006, 12:31

Now, that I am retired I'd almost do it for free.

BoyScout · 10-10-2006, 14:43

For a time here we had a Norman PD officer perminantly assigned to our school system and several off duty officers in the middle high and high schools within the schools. It did not take such a trajedy as the latest ones America has experienced, but it might now.

**The Reaper** · 10-10-2006, 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoyScout

For a time here we had a Norman PD officer perminantly assigned to our school system and several off duty officers in the middle high and high schools within the schools. It did not take such a trajedy as the latest ones America has experienced, but it might now.

Yeah, that is what we have already mentioned as an SRO, School Resource Officer.

He should have probably escorted you to English class. Attention to detail. Spell check.

TR

82ndtrooper · 10-11-2006, 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor

Bro, do you pay a monthly premium for auto insurance, or homeowner's insurance in case your house catches fire or is blown down by a tornado? What's the likelyhood you'll need any of this coverage ever? Regardless, we pay a great deal of money to insurance companies 'just in case'. I've learned the hard way that statistics are merely indicators, not hard truths, and the costs can be very, very high should they fail. I like the idea of tools to help mitigate my (and my family's) assumed risk.

But you don't know for sure until you ask, do you? The worst thing that can happen is they'll say 'no', and if they do, what did you lose from how things are currently being run?

The 2nd amendmant suffers much the same way. Both sides of the debate, if there really is any debate, are far too scared to take up the issue of the 2nd Amendment with a higher court. After all, the case could be settled for once and for all, and not necessarily in favor of either side of the fence. Hence, no real debate over the 2nd Amendmant standing as it is, but rather enforce unconstitutional laws for the ownership of and the right to keep and bear arms.

Elitist attitudes towards gun owners are common, be it from LEO agencies as a whole, or collective body, or from those that feel any one with a gun lacks proper training, or at least equivalent to their own. Tactical and Self Defense handgun courses are two different animals, at least from the perspective of military and civillian self defense training. What would it take for X_SF_MED to feel comfortable with my level of pistol training, experience and or both ?

x SF med · 10-11-2006, 14:25

82-
My argument was that Joe Shit the Commie Hippie Teacher with no training except 4hrs given by a school board would not be a likely candidate as a protector for my kid. I'd rather see 3 well trained ex-mil/ex-LEO guards at a school than 30 ill-trained teachers. Your rebuttal is weak. If I were to apply for an armed school guard position, I'd:
1. shoot for 3 weeks under the teutelage of TR, TS, KGoerz, or Gene Econ
2. shoot for another 3 weeks as in 1 above
3. make sure I got to the range at least 1 day a week
4. set up annual refreshsers with other QPs

And after all of that I'd train some more. Getting people certified is not the problem, keeping them from being a danger to those they are protecting is.

My outlook has been formed by the Army and SF - to me weapons are tools, and constant use, practice and maintenance are required to keep the operator and the tools in condition. Would you want any guy off the street in your kid's school, armed?

If TS or TR were the only guards at a school, my kid would go there. If my only choice was a school where every teacher was armed 'just in case' my kid would be home schooled.

82ndtrooper · 10-11-2006, 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by x_sf_med

82-
My argument was that Joe Shit the Commie Hippie Teacher with no training except 4hrs given by a school board would not be a likely candidate as a protector for my kid. I'd rather see 3 well trained ex-mil/ex-LEO guards at a school than 30 ill-trained teachers. Your rebuttal is weak. If I were to apply for an armed school guard position, I'd:
1. shoot for 3 weeks under the teutelage of TR, TS, KGoerz, or Gene Econ
2. shoot for another 3 weeks as in 1 above
3. make sure I got to the range at least 1 day a week
4. set up annual refreshsers with other QPs

And after all of that I'd train some more. Getting people certified is not the problem, keeping them from being a danger to those they are protecting is.

My outlook has been formed by the Army and SF - to me weapons are tools, and constant use, practice and maintenance are required to keep the operator and the tools in condition. Would you want any guy off the street in your kid's school, armed?

If TS or TR were the only guards at a school, my kid would go there. If my only choice was a school where every teacher was armed 'just in case' my kid would be home schooled.

Agreed !! I certainly dont want Joe Shit the Commie Hippie teacher with a 4 hour handgun course taking watch over my son, or for matter anyones children. We're in agreement here, and I'm certainly not volunteering for the job unless I'm trained far beyond my current level of handgun and rifle expertise, if I can even refer to my level of training as "Expertise" However, I'm more qualified than Joe Shit the Commie Hippie Teacher with a 4 hour handgun course, but certainly not putting my skill level against TR, TS, or any other "QP"

On the other hand, in my neck of the woods, most with a LEO badge cant stand next to most of the general folks and hit squat with a handgun or rifle. There's no "JEDI MASTER" skills issued with the uniform. Would I trust them with my sons life ? Some yes, some NO WAY !!! Some of dumbest things I've heard in reference to firearms generally come out of the mouths of the local PD and Sherrifs office.

CoLawman · 10-11-2006, 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by 82ndtrooper

On the other hand, in my neck of the woods, most with a LEO badge cant stand next to most of the general folks and hit squat with a handgun or rifle. There's no "JEDI MASTER" skills issued with the uniform. Would I trust them with my sons life ? Some yes, some NO WAY !!! Some of dumbest things I've heard in reference to firearms generally come out of the mouths of the local PD and Sherrifs office.

Trooper,
I only know of a few cops in your neck of the woods. Maybe you have heard of them?
1. Officer Jason Cammack
2. Deputy Billy Ray Walls
3. Captain Charles Morgan
4. Sheriff Samuel Catron
5. Deputy Howard Callis
6. Commissioner Ray Franklin
7. Officer Eddie Mundo
8. Officer Douglas Bryant
9. Captain Robert Hansel
10. Constable Steven Hutchinson
11. Sergeant Larry Cottingham
12. Officer Peter Grignon
13. Deputy Roger Lynch
14. Constable Elmer Kiser

In fact I am familiar with the names of 403 officers from Kentucky. None of them were Jedi Knights, and some of them probably were not very bright. But what those 14 listed officers recently did was to give their life in the line of duty. A total of 403 officers from your "neck of the woods" have given their lives for the citizens of Kentucky.

As a favor to your states officers please tone down the rhetoric. And thank you for giving me an opportunity to point out your state's very notable contribution and sacrifices to this great nation.