Are we at war with Islam?

[Razor]

Originally Posted by 3SoldierDad

At the appropriate time, I would be for the outlawing of Islam and mass deportations of all practicing Muslims. I don't care how impractical this may seem today.

That's too close to the idea behind zero-tolerance/zero-leadership/zero-thinking policies I despise for me to agree, I'm afraid.

[3SoldierDad]

Originally Posted by Razor

That's too close to the idea behind zero-tolerance/zero-leadership/zero-thinking policies I despise for me to agree, I'm afraid.

Yeah, I agree, it's fairly harsh...I believe, however, it is the right thing to do, but not necessarily the comfortable, easy, or even realistic thing to do. I wanted to put it out there understanding the inevitable blow-back.

Opposing Hitler with force early - in the mid 30s - was not really doable, either. A little resolve in 1936 may have saved 50 million lives. Generally, when something is REALLY difficult, people only do the right thing when it is absolutely necessary. This was true of the U.S. and the UK in World War II. It is true today. It's the early 30s and I'm saying contain Hitler and Germany's aspirations for global domination with force, if necessary (and, yes force would have been necessary to stop the Nazis in advance of their global quest).

I agree with Mark Steyn - I'm afraid we are at the beginning of an inevitable global political-religious demographic disaster. I'm not sure it can be reversed - slowed YES, but not reversed. The world lacks the fortitude necessary. We can buy some time, but global Islamification seems inevitable to me.

This is all my opinion. It may be zero or little tolerance for a growing global fascist system, but I think being resolved for specific actions when it is appropriate is not an abandonment of leadership - It is the ultimate form of leadership; albeit, lonely leadership - In the West, though, leadership can never be lonely since it is democratic - democratic leadership can only be applied via consensus (a weakness of democracy since it fails to confront threats early). The problem is the West has become weak and indolent - It has lost its stomach for confronting evil - Yes, in this observer's view Islam is evil. I would agree I may be over-the-top extreme, but I don't think so. Extreme threats demand extreme responses. We're heading into a violent age of seeming chaos and extreme is not necessarily extreme anymore.

Zero thinking - Hmmm...Well, I am thinking, I can assure you. Many folks are thinking deeply about these things all the time - My argument is with the quality of the thinking. My family thinks I think too much. For those of us young enough to see how the next two or three decades unfold, history will show us just how relevant this thinking is. I believe the West as we know it doesn't have much more than 30 years unless we respond strongly in the next five to ten years against the dark tides moving against us.

It may take something horrible to wake us up. God help us.


Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

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[smp52]

Originally Posted by 3SoldierDad

My answer to the question of this thread...

Yes, we are at war with Islam...That includes the peaceful Muslims - Islam has no civilians.

At the appropriate time, I would be for the outlawing of Islam and mass deportations of all practicing Muslims. I don't care how impractical this may seem today.

There comes a time wihen we must cease playing footsie with this cancer.

The state needs to leave our businesses, education, healthcare, families and environment alone - The state needs to concentrate its efforts on protecting us from the nation's enemies - including, and especially, the global darkness of Islam.


Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

I vehemently disagree with this position. One can't fight fascism with fascism. Edit: You just get different sides of the coin like Nazis and Soviets. They fought each other, but over the last century we've had to fight both of them and beat them in different ways.

First off, to say one billion people who follow the different sects of Islam don't have normal civilians is trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. It doesn't matter if you believe they are true muslims or not. Islam has civilians, but depending on the place and location, war means civilians die depending on the choices they make as well. The modern definition that civilians cannot be harmed in war comes only from a western viewpoint, which arose from the ashes of the great World Wars. Historically, civilians have been burned, raped, pillaged as waring nations came head to head. I don't want to go back to those days, really, which is why fighting these wars smartly is more important than shotgun solutions.

Secondly, from a libertarian viewpoint, I want reduced influence of the large central/federal governments, on local governance. Doesn't mean the state (federal, state, or county) is out of the business, one just needs to take a look at where effective value and contributions can be made. Where consensus doesn't exist, it is a poor choice for a large organization to invent one solution for all. Let locals who can agree make their choices as they should.

I think the federal government actually does a decent job, when you stack it up against rest of the world, to protect us. But it will never, ever be a fail proof system and people need to understand this. The TSA was an exercise in stupidity. There will never be a fort secure enough, a mountain high enough, or a land isolated enough to keep us safe and sound. All great fortifications in history were merely circumvented by a smarter foe. Beyond the legality and ethics of it, removing all muslims from America will never work. Removing anyone that looks like a muslim will never work, removing anyone that has agreed to jihadi ideology will never work, because where there is a will, there is a way. The fight among men has always existed and will continue, only names, faces, religions, and ways have changed.

Muslims should be deported, but to where? At what cost to the United States? A significant chunk of our muslim population are domestic converts from the African American community, beyond that, all it takes for someone to become a "muslim" is converting to in their mind and they don't have to tell anyone about it. You're also assuming that all muslims here have already become jihadi and are evil. The idea of 'getting rid' of the cancer by deportation is akin to, in quality assurance terms, sorting out 'defect' once it has appeared. Bottom line - it never works. Well, it does, but is doomed to continue repeating itself.

Only way to reduce a defect is to eliminate the root of it. Which means continue to kill off the bad guys where they come from along with a healthy dosage of mind altering propaganda via economic, political, and social means locally and internationally. In essence, letting folks like QPs direct the fight and do their jobs unconstrained.

Practically speaking, one will never be able to get rid of "Islam". The idea, just like nuclear technology, is out there in the open. One has to roll with the punches and continue fighting the dynamic till community after community decides its in their best interest to get educated, civilized, and reform their little backward fragment of the world.

The Islamic world hasn't had its reformation, yet. People are fighting back and will continue to (and believe me, others are fighting, though many places unproductively as they either take the kumbaya multicultural (Europe) approach or the opposite extremely fascist method (ethnic cleansing)).

[mdb23]

Originally Posted by 3SoldierDad

At the appropriate time, I would be for the outlawing of Islam and mass deportations of all practicing Muslims. I don't care how impractical this may seem today.

So you don't want the state meddling in business, education, the environment, etc., but you want them to decide which religions are acceptable for practice by US citizens?

I'll pass on that idea.

Also, what about Muslims who have (or are) honorably serving int he GWOT? Are they subject to deportation?

I think youa re going a wee bit too far on this one...

[3SoldierDad]

Originally Posted by smp52

The Islamic world hasn't had its reformation, yet. People are fighting back and will continue to (and believe me, others are fighting, though many places unproductively as they either take the kumbaya multicultural (Europe) approach or the opposite extremely fascist method (ethnic cleansing)).

I hope you're right. I really do.

However, I am quite pessimistic on the subject. Forbidding Sharia law is a form of outlawing the practice of Islam - I'm for outlawing Islam's more sociopathic practices. Moslems who practice or condone Jihad, which is basic to Moslem practice, should be deported.

Again, I would be delighted to see Islam reform itself. I'm sorry to say on this subject I'm incredulous. The most despicable Moslems on the planet are the 950 million Moslems who cower before the 50 million Moslem fundamentalists. I see too little courage for widespread change. In addition to inspiring revolting deeds of violence, the Koran seems to procreate a sea of cowardice and emasculated men.

If it is any consolation, I don't like my views either. It cheers me to get a decent argument.

For this I thank you...


Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

[3SoldierDad]

Originally Posted by mdb23

So you don't want the state meddling in business, education, the environment, etc.,

There is a place for laws and supervision - Yes. However, where the state can exercise a real benefit to the people is in its ability to protect its citizens. Killing bad guys and detouring bad guys is what the state is for. Everything else as far as I'm concerned is a garnish.

Originally Posted by mdb23

but you want them to decide which religions are acceptable for practice by US citizens?

I don't want to decide. I want the state to protect me and you from anyone or anything that would seek to destroy us or enslave us. I think Islam seeks to accomplish one or the other.

Originally Posted by mdb23

I'll pass on that idea.

Ain't America great...

Originally Posted by mdb23

Also, what about Muslims who have (or are) honorably serving int he GWOT? Are they subject to deportation?

If we wanted to get philosophical I would say they are not true Muslims. When they honor our military and participate in the GWOT they dishonor Islam and therefore - No, they shouldn't be deported. I think the time will come when we will have to put the Muslims in our midst to a loyalty test. I'm am not suggesting we "kill" those who fail the test (like the Nazis would), but rather we deport them.

Originally Posted by mdb23

I think you're going a wee bit too far on this one...

Yeah, maybe.

Perhaps, it served to get your attention.


Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

[mdb23]

Originally Posted by 3SoldierDad

If we wanted to get philosophical I would say they are not true Muslims. When they honor our military and participate in the GWOT they dishonor Islam and therefore - No, they shouldn't be deported. I think the time will come when we will have to put the Muslims in our midst to a loyalty test. I'm am not suggesting we "kill" those who fail the test (like the Nazis would), but rather we deport them.

Ok, who decides who is or isn't a "true" Muslim, and what "test" could possibly "prove" one way or another.

I'm sorry, but your ideas are too outlandish to be pragmatic.

[3SoldierDad]

Originally Posted by mdb23

Ok, who decides who is or isn't a "true" Muslim, and what "test" could possibly "prove" one way or another.

Let's take your example - join the military or not; support the GWOT or not. Not too tough, really. Will they actively oppose Islamic terrorism or not - words and deeds...words and deeds...words and deeds.

Originally Posted by mdb23

I'm sorry, but your ideas are too outlandish to be pragmatic.

No need to apologize. Ideas are often outlandish at first blush. When things get crazy, though, it's amazing what things don't seem so far fetched anymore. I'll submit for your consideration, that someday you may remember what I have written and you may call it to mind. You might even be surprised in that time at how practical my suggestions from this time will at that time seem. You might even find yourself being surprised that you ever perceived such suggestions could be thought of as so outlandish.

Some day, I'm afraid, we will probably get there. Relatively speaking we are currently enjoying peaceful times. In the Civil War 23,000 men fell in a couple days at the second Battle of Bull Run - More than five times the deaths suffered in this war. In World War II there were battles where more American soldiers died in six weeks than all the brave soldiers we've thus far lost in six years fighting the GWOT. Indeed, as one surveys history's "hot wars," it is not uncommon to discover 1/3 of the men in a nation ages 16 to 50 being wiped out by "a war." Therefore, when a society is truly threatened, we must not underestimate what a society won't or can't do in order to survive.

When and if the U.S. ever really gets hurt by the Islamic Fascists...All bets are off. It will get really messy for the Arab world. They haven't yet seen the West go red in the face. That will be a terrible day. It won't be a pragmatic day - It will be a terrible day.

So, no need to apologize. Some ideas can definitely appear outlandish at first.


Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

[mdb23]

I'm not willing to empower the govt to take away the freedom of religion, one of our founding principles for which we fought a revolution, and to issue "loyalty tests" to determine what citizens are allowed to stay. A rather illogical and dangerous precedent to set.

Those who would sacrifice their liberty for security deserve neither.

[3SoldierDad]

Originally Posted by mdb23

I'm not willing to empower the govt to take away the freedom of religion, one of our founding principles for which we fought a revolution, and to issue "loyalty tests" to determine what citizens are allowed to stay.

Islam is a political system. Get this and all the rest is quibbling.

As a religion it is a ruse. People are free to do anything they want - including following a ruse - until the exercise of their freedom threatens me, my family, my community, and my country.

Islam has declared war on me and my people. The world's only Islamic Republic, Iran, conducts its daily business regularly chanting DEATH TO AMERICA - I for one am enjoining the war. I wish I had 3 X 3,000 more sons to give to the GWOT. I can't get in uniform and join-up. But, I can do other things.

Originally Posted by mdb23

A rather illogical and dangerous precedent to set.

I'm not endeavoring to be logical; at times reality defies neatness...And, yeah, it could be dangerous, but the alternative to doing too little is worse. Danger sooner is better than greater danger later.

Originally Posted by mdb23

Those who would sacrifice their liberty for security deserve neither.

The gov't that won't protect me and the liberty of those I love is an ally with those that would seek to destroy me and/or enslave me. Those who refuse to secure the nation and protect its liberties should be the first ones to be delivered over to the enemy as slaves.


Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

[smp52]

Originally Posted by 3SoldierDad

Moslems who practice or condone Jihad, which is basic to Moslem practice, should be deported.

Sir, you keep talking about deporting muslims. To where, I submit the question again. If the jihadi in question is a foreign national, sure, the country of origin may comply in taking the person back. But Americans, who have adopted Islam or been born here for two generations, will be deported to.......?

We have Nazis, Black Panthers, and anarchist idiots, and many more who follow ideologies that aren't acceptable to main stream America. Over the years, we've beat back the Germans, Soviets and other extreme groups that have threatened our existence. Sure, they aren't direct threats to society today, but on a small scale they threaten the freedoms of individuals due to the hatred within them. I don't see any deportations. If they break a law, maybe some jail time. Using that logic, a bunch of white males would have been deported from the South for involvement in the KKK.

Your assumptions are based upon the idea that we're losing right now and will continue to lose ground on all fronts and be eventually inundated to where the choice to made will be that drastic. I don't think we'll get there simply because the country has been fighting back.

I've lived in a country with over 100 million muslims, who are a minority there. Yet, despite the violence, society of the majority hasn't fallen apart nor are they in any danger of "losing out" anytime soon and for the most part, the vast population peacefully co-exists with the majority other than a few hotspots or political games designed to incite ignorant masses on both sides to violent means. People don't budge so easily, however, the key to maintaining civil society is in education and the democratic process backed up by rule of law.

[JMI]

I empathize with what you're saying 3SoldierDad, and the worst of me agrees. But I know some pretty great guys and gals who are Muslim, and they are not in agreement with anything coming out of the ME.

We live in a tough world with dangerous people. But the ME is a choking point for thought, and I dare not apply the ME to America. Freedom is not free, but it is not half assed either.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by mdb23

I'm not willing to empower the govt to take away the freedom of religion, one of our founding principles for which we fought a revolution, and to issue "loyalty tests" to determine what citizens are allowed to stay. A rather illogical and dangerous precedent to set.

Those who would sacrifice their liberty for security deserve neither.

The key to all this as I see it is that this country's strength came from the fact that no one specified that any religion be followed but rather that all who came here were welcome as long as they became assimilated into the culture, values upon which this country was founded-which happened to be judeo-christain (neither capitalized on purpose so as not to offend anyone or to offend all equally) and English Law to mention two. What has happened with all the happy little groups-be they religious oriented or hypenated AmeriKans- is that they fail to accept the basic tenets and values that defines who we once were, and who all true Americans are today.
They instead see their values/culture/beliefs/mores/tenets as overridding those for which this nation stands and are willing to get in my face to have me bend to their will. It is time to get out a large cuisinart and dump what has become a stew and run this nation through on high, breaking up the chunks and returning it back to the melting pot it once was. In the process, those little irritants and husks that rise to the top like the froth on a head of Wiezenbier and refuse to disolve into the mix should be scraped away and discarded.

[3SoldierDad]

Originally Posted by smp52 - Sir, you keep talking about deporting muslims. To where, I submit the question again.

Some place - Not here. I do have some ideas. This is something for the gov't to determine since they are responsible for protecting its citizens.

Originally Posted by JMI

But I know some pretty great guys and gals who are Muslim, and they are not in agreement with anything coming out of the ME.

These people should have little to worry about from folks like me.

Originally Posted by JMI

and they are not in agreement with anything coming out of the ME

Super...


Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

[3SoldierDad]

Originally Posted by JMI

I empathize with what you're saying 3SoldierDad, and the worst of me agrees. But I know some pretty great guys and gals who are Muslim, and they are not in agreement with anything coming out of the ME.

These people should have little to worry about from folks like me - They should be worried however what their Islamic peers are thinking about them.

Originally Posted by JMI

and they are not in agreement with anything coming out of the ME

I don't doubt that you have these friends, but I find it interesting that it is so difficult to find these people. Where are these Muslims who are so against what is happening in the Middle East? They don't seem to lift their voices very high - If they lift them at all. I haven't seen them demostrating nor have I seen these folks writing into their local newspapers or being interviewed by the local media, I don't see them joining the military in droves. I see a cowering, mealy-mouthed, beaten people....Dare I say it? Enablers one and all. (At least all that I can see)

I know a prominent local Muslim businessman in my city (I could call him a friend, but I won't - he isn't), and we've done breakfast several times discussing global politics when we were supposed to be discussing various business matters (as men are wont to do). This man is constantly defending why the Arabs are so frustrated and how certain behavior can be understood, and why the USA is getting its comeuppance for its years of hegemony in the region. I saw no outrage at the suicide bombings, or for the the lopping off of heads, or for the hateful temperment that the Muslims have for one another. Yes, he talks about how terrible everything is, but only after an hour of quasi-defense of what's going on - He backs-up to cover his tracks. It's so disgusting that even now I'm becoming sick just thinking about it. Seriously, after one of our discussions I wasn't sure if I wanted to shower first or call the FBI. This guy is one of the most prominent Muslim leaders in a large Midwestern city.

I would warn you not to be a dupe. We Americans love to believe the best. As far as I'm concerned, Islam in America has outlived this wonderful courtesy.

I for one am paid-up.


Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

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