Reliable Pistol

[DJ Urbanovsky]

I like your plan B. That MK-II is just awesome.

Originally Posted by Buffalobob

Plan B.

[Menschenschreck]

http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668

If a decision has not been made on the type of handgun to buy, I have personally had a very favorable experience with the HK P30. They just won't die.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Menschenschreck

http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668

If a decision has not been made on the type of handgun to buy, I have personally had a very favorable experience with the HK P30. They just won't die.

The example in your link did.

[aaronw]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

I have a Glock 17 that I bought, installed a target trigger, lubed, and took directly to a tactical class.

I put more than 5,000 rounds of Remington yellow box ammo through it with zero malfunctions.

TR

I have had zero issues with mine either. I wipe it down every 1000 or so rounds with militech. Not out of lazyness, but as a deliberate decision. Thats firing army ammo thats got that wierd granular shit in the powder. So it can get pretty funky. Before I get scolded - I'm more deliberate about it when it matters.

Only issue I've ever seen with a glock, was on my own 21SF. When I dissassembled it I saw the (stock captured) recoil spring assembly had slipped just off the half moon recess on the barrel lug. I thought I might have just bumped it during dissassembly so I fired again and I partyly replicated the problem, but it didnt slip completely out this time. I'm pretty fanatical about my glocks so I was a bit bent about it. In the end it didnt really matter because I always replace em with a non captured rod and spring since I see that new assembly theyre putting on the new glocks as the only potential weak link on the gun. That being said it still never jammed or failed to fire.

At home I have a 19 17 26 and 21SF. Huge Glock fan. Very reliable and accurate. I'll get a 34 soon. I hope you end up being happy with your purchase. If not I'm sure youll be able to sell it without much of a loss

[Skywatch]

Originally Posted by Buffalobob

I did as I was told and went to the gunshop and they had no gun butter but they had the Militec and the TW 25B so that is what I bought. I also got some better ammo also. I field stripped it and there was hardened grease in the slide rails and after some work with carb cleaner and Gun Scrubber, I got the grease softened up enough to get most of it out. Then I coated it with the Militec and used a heat gun on it. Then I lubed the rails and called it good.

The empty PMC brass was loaded back up with max (not +P) loads of HS6 and Power Pistol and Hornady 90 and 115 gr XTP.

Took the pistol back to the range and it was just a different gun all together. There was almost no recoil and very little right twist any more. Everything feed perfectly without a single stoppage. The funny thing is that the 124 Golden Saber +P had less muzzle movement than the PMC ammo had the first time around.

The whole issues seems to have been the hardened factory grease and once that was gone it was really smooth and pleasant.

BuffaloBob,

In addition to the viscous Glock factory grease, the lightening cuts on the G34 slide allow for a slightly lower 'margin of error' with regards to cycling due to chamber pressure, obstructive fouling, infirm posture or grip, etc...

While shooting IDPA, I've seen various Glock 34's choke during courses of fire that required shooting using support side hand only, using lower quality ammunition with a less effective powder burn (Wolf, which the 17/19 seem to have no trouble with).

Also, the tendency continues if you try and suppress the pistol. A friend and I tested a Suppressor Package (AAC Evo 9mm) on a Glock 34, and it had continual problems cycling, leading to more evidence that the slide lightening changes the feeding characteristics. The suppressor in question has a built in Nielson, which compensates for the diminished recoil by adding back-pressure specifically to help the weapon cycle.

The longer barrel also tends to send 147gr 9mm's supersonic in addition to the issue of decreased reliability.

Just a few things to consider that I hadn't seen mentioned... Hopefully it'll be of use to others considering the G34.

Cheers,

Aaron

[aaronw]

Originally Posted by Skywatch

BuffaloBob,

the lightening cuts on the G34 slide allow for a slightly lower 'margin of error' with regards to cycling due to chamber pressure, obstructive fouling, infirm posture or grip, etc...

Cheers,

Aaron

Can you go into this in more detail? I understand the individual issues mentioned, but having trouble grasping why it is more of an issue on the 34. Despite the longer barrel, isnt the weight center/balance of the pistol the same as the 17? Hence the decision to lighten the front of the slide???

Dont own one, dont have any experience with one, but probably will buy one soon... Hence my curiosity on the subject..

[Skywatch]

Originally Posted by aaronw

Can you go into this in more detail? I understand the individual issues mentioned, but having trouble grasping why it is more of an issue on the 34. Despite the longer barrel, isnt the weight center/balance of the pistol the same as the 17? Hence the decision to lighten the front of the slide???

Dont own one, dont have any experience with one, but probably will buy one soon... Hence my curiosity on the subject..

Sir,

They have different weights, but check out the difference between the 19/17 and the 17/34, and barrel lengths:
G19 Weight: 20.99 BBL: 4.02
G17 Weight: 22.04 BBL: 4.49
G34 Weight: 22.92 BBL: 5.32"
Source: http://www.glock.com/english/index_pistols.htm

The 19/17 BBL difference is WT: 1.05oz BBL: .47".
The 17/34 BBL difference is WT: 0.88oz BBL: .83".

You can see right off the bat that the weight to length ratio isn't commensurate between the 3 models. This disparity means that for a longer overall barrel in the G34, you're actually getting about 4/5 of the weight increase - Basically, Glock reached a barrel length/weight ratio that made the gun "Nose heavy", and compromised a bit of its reliability. The result was the G17L - which became the G34, with the lightening cuts.

This is about where my understanding/information of the physics ends - I can't tell you what effect recoil spring weight or specific loads (and their corresponding Force) have on balancing this out, or where the line of diminished returns is with regards to ammo.

What I'm getting at is that there is an empirical link between the deviation of the ratios and the reliability; IE, the G19/17 do not suffer from suppression or ammunition variation while the G34 does.

Just did a quick search, and with some more data, this might be useful:
http://www.bsharp.org/physics/recoil

Cheers,

Aaron

[Menschenschreck]

Originally Posted by Dusty

The example in your link did.

I posted that entry to demonstrate that even with mechanical parts deterioration, the design of the pistol still allows it to function. I've been around a lot of handguns that have reacted to broken parts by becoming completely nonfunctional, but I have never seen a P30 cease to function. This has just been my observation.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by Buffalobob

Having read some portions of the Army pistol marksmanship manual and looked at the picture of TS’s recommended grip, I decided to video my shooting style to see if it would provide me any insights to errors. One of the important things to know is that TS doesn’t shoot a glock!!!
http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcys.../6/c1ErxdrhuWs

After a few videos of me, I move the camera to the target and began shooting different loads. Up first is the supposedly great IDPA load with the 124 Speer RN and Titegroup. Distance is exactly 20 yards and the tape is 1.5 inch painters tape. The bottom group was the same load. Both are shot freehand.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcys.../4/cupNECVSdBo

Buffalobob, just quick observation. Your grip is not exactly as what TS demonstrated. Make sure the supporting hand is as high as possible to the point that the wrist is bent like when throwing a fish lure, and the supporting hand's index finger further forward under the trigger guard. Between the 1st and 2nd video I could see your supporting hand's pinky slipping. A picture is worth a thousand words and a video is probably more, so here's one to illustrate what I meant. It's not focused on grip, but watch how he forms his grip and stance....and yes, he's shooting a stock glock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d2VdaiIodo

I was once a non-believer of glock accuracy. It sure is not the most user-friendly accuracy-wise, but it's very much capable. I've finally shot the 17 as well as I shoot the HK P30 @ 25m. Given unlimited $$$, of course I'd still go with the P30

[Buffalobob]

Thanks Forstfire for the link. I downloaded the video and am going to print off a picture of the guy's hands and then print off the one of TS. Plus I am going to make a sheet to take with me to the range of what the manual says about grip so I do not have to rely on my memory of how everything is supposed to fit together.

Secondly, I went to my loading manual and reviewed the parameters of the +P bear load that shot well. It was in loaded in +P Rem cases. So I conclude that just like in rifles, case uniformity makes a difference. Damn internet warriors who believe cheap is better than accurate. So I am going to try the Titegroup powder in well sorted uniform cases with several different bullets and see what happens.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Buffalobob

Thanks Forstfire for the link. I downloaded the video and am going to print off a picture of the guy's hands and then print off the one of TS. Plus I am going to make a sheet to take with me to the range of what the manual says about grip so I do not have to rely on my memory of how everything is supposed to fit together.

Secondly, I went to my loading manual and reviewed the parameters of the +P bear load that shot well. It was in loaded in +P Rem cases. So I conclude that just like in rifles, case uniformity makes a difference. Damn internet warriors who believe cheap is better than accurate. So I am going to try the Titegroup powder in well sorted uniform cases with several different bullets and see what happens.

BB:

What do bears weigh where you hunt?

If you would not trust a 5.56 on them, I would not be using a 9x19 either.

TR

[Buffalobob]

The original primary purpose of the Glock was home defense. I already have a 460 S&W which has the same case capacity for powder as a 308. The problem with the 460 is it has a brake on it so you have to wear ear muffs to shoot it and it weighs about 5 pounds without a holster. With holster, earmuffs and ammo you are looking at 6 pounds or so of weight. I used it one year and found the need for earmuffs to be very slow and cumbersome in the dark and when going to pack out an elk it is a lot of weight to carry. I could order a closed muzzle extension to replace the brake but it seems like a lot of trouble.

I am a big fan of the 5.56 with FMJs but the DC regs prohibit owning any rifle or shotgun with a pistol grip or otherwise looking like an assault rifle. So it is not an option for me.

I would certainly not actively hunt black bears with a 9mm and if I was buying a pistol specifically for general carry in black bear country I wold probably go to a 10 mm. Certainly a 9mm is underpowered for a bear by any measure, but it is what I have and it is OK for sleeping in the tent at night and for the one day or so that it takes to pack out an elk.

Here is a video of what it looks like to pack out an elk by your self.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcys.../9/7f37MdaTxA0

Whether or not I would actually shoot a bear for eating my elk is questionable being as I do my best to give the meat away anyway and the bear would be saving me from having to pack it out. .


P.S.

One of the interesting pieces of trivia in my life is that Utah prohibits any firearms in your camp while archery hunting UNLESS you have a concealed carry permit. So I actually have a concealed carry permit for Utah just so I can have my guns with me.

[Buffalobob]

A couple of observations at this point in time. The Glock 34 definitely likes full power loads and does not like light loads at all. I conclude that the earlier comments about the light slide are correct.

I am currently shooting 123 gr Lapua round noses and HS-6 w/ Fed primers.

I have now shot two two IPSC matches, one IDPA match and one Bullseye match. They DNF'd me on the Bullseye match because I did not have a 45 cal handgun. Didn't matter about being DNF'd being as I was happy not to be DQ'd for shooting a target when I was supposed to hold fire. I do not understand some of the stuff in Bullseye - I mean why would you say "make the line safe" and then rotate the targets to be shot. Nonetheless, the lesson to be learned was to always have a spare battery for your ear muffs so you can hear the commands.


Pistol competition is habit forming and there should be a surgeon generals or federal reserve warning on competition pistols.

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by Buffalobob

A couple of observations at this point in time. The Glock 34 definitely likes full power loads and does not like light loads at all. I conclude that the earlier comments about the light slide are correct.

Bob, have you tried a reduce recoil spring?

[Roguish Lawyer]

Just read this thread again and trying to figure out how TS managed to keep quiet through the whole thing . . .

I am no expert, but I much prefer my H&Ks (Compact .40 and full-size .45) to my Glock 17.