An NDD Spin-off Thread

[Roguish Lawyer]

Greenhat:

You are brilliant and correct.

[Ockham's Razor]

GH,

Sir, your points are valid and correct. The best example of what can happen when the government meddles in business affairs too much is California. Many Californians were scratching their head at why so many companies were going bankrupt as well as many companies undertaking great costs to move their operations to other states. Yet, the answer was obvious; bad legislation.

Whilst I agree with you that social changes lead to much of the reformed labor standards, it was set in stone by legislation and regulatory bodies. I have never, and will never trust a company to police itself. It's an extreme on both ends. I'm trying to meet it in the middle. The problem seems not to be the legislation, but the extremes to which the legislation is brought to. Worker's Safety, great stuff. Let's have some minimum standards in order to assure we don't have people getting sucked into a meat grinder. But, then these governmentally created bodies, in order to perpetuate their jobs, create asinine regulations every year in order to seem like they are doing more. THAT is a serious problem.

My position is this, Sir. We have corporations whose motto is obfuscate, obfuscate, obfuscate... Eventually the truth comes out, and YES the system does work, they have to answer for any mistakes in judgement, Monsanto/Tobacco/DowCorning etc etc... When their mistakes come to light, the consumers are the ones who rally into action. I had always thought that the reason for regulation was to try to bring these issues to light sooner rather than later. We need environmental standards that are enforceable, but the EPA has gone to far. We need standards for workers safety, but OSHA has gone too far. We should not scrap these agencies or change the legislation to zero. These organisations need solid neutral/competant leadership. We can have it both ways. Unfortunately, it seems like everytime we create an organisation they wind up overstepping their bounds in some way.

It's hard for me not to want some legislation to protect workers. I'm the son of a Union Man. I understand your position, and on all economic levels it is factually sound. I honestly can't give you any personal stories from my region about this being a bad economy and that things look glum. In fact, I can point to quite the opposite. We are doing very well in New England. My concern lies with those folks who have at minimum a HS education and found solid pay in the manufacturing sector. There are quite a few of them.

I really liked the new proposal to help re-train those workers. I believe in that proposal. We WILL create jobs in new sectors and refocus our economic base. I think the 12-18 month forecast for this country is fantastic. If we maintain this level of growth and follow through on the re-training proposal, I really like the direction we are headed in. I've seen so many economic forecasts both doom and gloom and total prosperity to realise it will lie right in the middle. We will sort this out, we will add jobs, hopefully legislation will be introduced to roll-back some of the more-intrusive anti-business laws, and we WILL innovate. That is the Motto of the United States of America, we are innovators. I may hail from a Liberal bastion, but I understand that corporate success is what lends us to have the quality of life we enjoy. Meaning: everyone here dislikes me. The motto around here is "Big Companies are BAD very BAD." Hard to explain and pose the question "So, who signs your paycheck?"

The Yankees. Yes, if spending that much in luxury tax for a guy who can't pitch when we walk down Yawkey Way with the prize... Sound economic fundamentals.

With regards to phone centers in that region... I could write up a business plan, but I'm saving that for your Christmas present. The profit potential is enormous. All I ask in return is a company title and use of the corporate jet. If you think that consultants make a great deal of cash, try owning a corporate training company that expressly focuses on the training of the hottest growing industry in that region. Money will rain down from the heavens.

Always a pleasure discussing things with you, GH. I always wind up learning more than I say.

Originally posted by Ockham's Razor
Unfortunately, it seems like everytime we create an organisation they wind up overstepping their bounds in some way.

It isn't unfortunate, it is the nature of the beast. And until you are willing to recognize that, you will continue to suffer with delusions that the government can do things via legislation that are good regarding business and regulation. They can't and shouldn't.

Want the government to legislate something useful? Criminal legislation, not civil. Legislate clearly actions that will be considered criminal and hold individuals responsible for those actions.

With regards to phone centers in that region... I could write up a business plan, but I'm saving that for your Christmas present. The profit potential is enormous. All I ask in return is a company title and use of the corporate jet. If you think that consultants make a great deal of cash, try owning a corporate training company that expressly focuses on the training of the hottest growing industry in that region. Money will rain down from the heavens.

Always a pleasure discussing things with you, GH. I always wind up learning more than I say. [/B]

http://www.nli.co.th

[Ockham's Razor]

Originally posted by Greenhat



http://www.nli.co.th

Firstly, you are right on the unfortunate argument. They wind up perpetuating themselves and creating legislation the restricts business.

Secondly, on that link... You win. LOL Obviously, I am slow and outdated. I had the feeling it was already in the works/being utilised. "Sales are expected to increase 50 fold from 20 million Baht to 1 billion Baht per year." I missed the bubble, again.

[lrd]

Originally posted by Ockham's Razor
It's hard for me not to want some legislation to protect workers. I'm the son of a Union Man. I understand your position, and on all economic levels it is factually sound. I honestly can't give you any personal stories from my region about this being a bad economy and that things look glum. In fact, I can point to quite the opposite. We are doing very well in New England. My concern lies with those folks who have at minimum a HS education and found solid pay in the manufacturing sector. There are quite a few of them.

My mother lives in rural Mississippi. There used to be 7 small factories in her community: 2 furniture, 1 beef jerky, 1 glove, 1 children's clothing, and a couple other textile factories. A majority of the people that worked in these factories were former farmers, wives of farmers, children of farmers and people who used to work for farmers. The big corporations moved in on the farmers, and these folks could no longer make a living farming. They swallowed their pride and went to work in town. Now 6 of the factories have closed due to outsourcing. What are these people to do? They are now driving 1 1/2 - 2 hours for a job paying less than what they were getting locally. Some of the young move closer to the work. Others simply cannot afford the expenses of moving and all that entails with higher rent, etc. The older folks want to hang on to their land for several reasons: it's one of their assets, it's been in their families for years, and if all else fails they will still be able to feed themselves and their children off of the land.

The children's clothing company sold to stores competing with WalMart. Their jobs were outsourced by companies trying to beat WalMart. Believe me, they see the irony of now having to shop at WalMart or drive a couple of hours to the city. Others refuse to step in the door -- but they're usually the ones who can afford to shop elsewhere.

Image is important to the consumer if you can afford it to be. When you are trying to clothe your children, your priorities change. That's how many of them ended up in the factories in the first place. But the feeling that these companies are leaving in these folks is not good.

You say that the service industry will replace manufacturing. I can see that, in the big picture. What worries me, is that this community may be dead by the time any type of service industry heads their way. They are down to one restaurant, the small family clothing store has closed, the hardware store is just hanging on because there are enough farmers in the area to keep it going. Many of these businesses were able to stay open because someone in the family worked at one of the factories. There used to be factory outlet stores -- they are closed.

My relatives went off to college and became preachers, teachers, doctors and nurses who farmed on the side. They returned to the community because that is where our family is, and because they wanted to repay the community that raised them. They would like to be able to serve and make a decent living that allows them to take care of their parents as they age. This is what makes a community alive.

I'm sure that eventually, down the line, someone will work with the people who are trying their best to get some sort of industry back in the community. There is a big world out there, however, and I'm afraid that it will be years before the pressure on companies to keep jobs here will have any effect. Outsourcing may allow jobs to be re-allocated to service industry jobs, but that doesn't mean that the jobs taken away will be replaced by new jobs.

Lrd,

Sink or swim. That is the challenge for the community. Other communities have found solutions. And others have disappeared.

[lrd]

Originally posted by Greenhat
Lrd,

Sink or swim. That is the challenge for the community. Other communities have found solutions. And others have disappeared.

I agree, looking at it from the big picture. I know I look at their situation less logically than I look at others, but they are my extended family. I know the Grandparents, Parents, Children, Grandchildren and Greatgrandchildren. And their dogs and horses, too.

[Sacamuelas]

Lrd-
I am sorry to hear about your families trouble. Economic and political debate aside, it is never easy when things affect a family member. So know that I have sympathy for them in their decision.

However, I am with GH on this one. It is her choice to stay on your family land and attempt to maintain the "way it has always been". Nothing wrong with that idea, however there should be no public legislation created to protect and isolate them from the effects of a potentially poor decision. If it is important for them to stay where they are then that is a decision that they made after weighing all the factors. Most Mississippians are actually striving to change the "way it has always been" (myself included).

Where in Mississippi? I can think of numerous reasons that businesses are relocating from rural MS that have absolutely nothing to do with overseas outsourcing. FWIW, MS just landed a new 100 million dollar Nissan factory plant in Canton. Your family may not be giving you the full story on their situation. It may not be on purpose, it is just that they are focusing on what they want to see as the only problem.

If these rural farm towns in MS would get control over their civil court systems the companies might be willing to do business there again. You wouldn't believe the frequency of runaway jury awards and disability/unemployment/workers comp claims burdening the companies that try to operate there. We won't even go into the farmers that claim they are in bankruptcy for the last twenty years, yet everyone in their family has a $45,000 dually truck.

I have lived in MS for 25 years, and my wife has litigated corporate defense cases in these towns/counties. If there was ever a poster made as an example of a unfriendly environment for businesses and wealth, it would be the conditions you find in rural MS counties. I say this b/c I live here... Let's not get into a bashing of MS... I will defend her honor from attacks by you outsiders!! LOL

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by Greenhat
Lrd,

Sink or swim. That is the challenge for the community. Other communities have found solutions. And others have disappeared.

Lrd, are you using the word outsourcing to describe companies moving overseas? If so, that's not the appropriate term. The appropriate term for that is Tax evasion-based profiteering by the bourgeoisie oppressor.

GH, you really want to get into this, don't you? "Sink or swim"? You are coming very close to invoking the spirit of Che. I don't know how much longer I can keep it at bay.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I have lived in MS for 25 years, and my wife has litigated corporate defense cases in these towns/counties. If there was ever a poster made as an example of a unfriendly environment for businesses and wealth, it would be the conditions you find in rural MS counties.

Damn Yankees and their nylon/poliester/rayon leisure suits! If the Army would make the uniforms out of 100% cotton like they know they should, Mississippi would be sittin' in tall cotton again.

..

[NousDefionsDoc]

Random thoughts:

guinness - be careful about agreeing with me, you don't know why I'm taking this stance.

Jawbreaker - the first duty of government is to protect the citizens of the republic.

Image is what allows businesses to charge more than the bare bottom line for their products.

While you are right about this GH, you are basing the incentive for companies to do the right thing on the most easily manipulated piece of the pie. Your concept of market driven control assumes educated and conscientous consumers as the driving force, which we have already shown is not the case with the televisions.

Do you think we should abolish the electoral college and have direct elections for President?

[NousDefionsDoc]

Caveat - I am not saying RL and CRad are not good consumers because they own Japanese television. I also own Japanese televisions.

[NousDefionsDoc]

lrd,
The fine people of Mississippi's agrarian society are yet another victim group of the decay of family values, divorce, and unwed mothers. Its not their fault.

[lrd]

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
Lrd-
I am sorry to hear about your families trouble. Economic and political debate aside, it is never easy when things affect a family member. So know that I have sympathy for them in their decision.

However, I am with GH on this one. It is her choice to stay on your family land and attempt to maintain the "way it has always been". Nothing wrong with that idea, however there should be no public legislation created to protect and isolate them from the effects of a potentially poor decision. If it is important for them to stay where they are then that is a decision that they made after weighing all the factors. Most Mississippians are actually striving to change the "way it has always been" (myself included).

Where in Mississippi? I can think of numerous reasons that businesses are relocation from rural MS that have absolutely nothing to do with overseas outsourcing. FWIW, MS just landed a new 100 million dollar Nissan factory plant in Canton. Your family may not be giving you the full story on their situation. It may not be on purpose, it is just that they may just be focusing on what they want to see as the problem.

If these rural farm towns in MS would get control over their civil court systems the companies might be willing to do business there again. You wouldn't believe the frequency of runaway jury awards and disability/unemployment/workers comp claims burdening the companies that try to operate there. We won't even go into the farmers that claim they are in bankruptcy for the last twenty years, yet everyone in their family has a $45,000 dually truck.

I have lived in MS for 25 years, and my wife has litigated corporate defense cases in these towns/counties. If there was ever a poster made as an example of a unfriendly environment for businesses and wealth, it would be the conditions you find in rural MS counties. I say this b/c I live here... Let's not get into a bashing of MS... I will defend her honor from attacks by you outsiders!! LOL

I wrote a long reply, and then decided it was best to delete and start over. Let me try again, now that I've vented my spleen on my keyboard. I began this as an example to illustrate Ian's concern that I originally quoted, but I may have used an example I'm a little to close to. . .

When I said "my family" I wasn't referring to my immediate family. However, my ancestors helped settle the area where my mother was born. We have strong ties to the land, and, indirectly, I probably am related to a good number of the people in the county and neighboring counties. Thus I feel a sense of responsibility to those that live there. We were taught to be a part of the community; that it was our civic duty to look out for those less fortunate than we.

I fully understand that my immediate family can afford to keep their land because my grandfather insisted that all 10 of his children (all born before 1929) attend college. After the depression, he knew that you always needed a back-up plan, and that education was the equalizer for his rural Mississippi children. He even drove the school bus to make sure they went to school. My uncle can afford to maintain the family farm in Northern Mississippi because he has a good job in Jackson. He is willing to do that to save the land for his children. That also means that he isn't living on the land. It stays in our family because we rent the house and land to a young family, who can't afford to buy their own land. This works well for all involved. His daughter will be able to do the same, in large part because she and her husband are tenured professors at MS State.

The people I'm worried about are the ones who can't afford a college education, or can't afford the time away from work to get a college education. In the past, they could farm, work at the factories, the restaurants, the grocery stores, the dry-goods stores; or they could join the military. When the factories started closing the workers didn't have the money to spend on "extras" and within a few years the other businesses began to close. When the people were able to get jobs in Tupelo or Columbus, they could either move there or commute. I know exactly where Canton is. It will help those in that area, but does little to help those people who live in my mother's area who need jobs to survive.

I'm sure that there are farmers who work the system. That pisses me off. I get pissed off at anyone who takes advantage of someone else. I think that companies like WalMart are taking advantage of everyone: not just the people here, but the people who are now doing the jobs.

I worry about the people who are being lost in the cracks as we move from manufacturing to service industies. It will take time for this transition to take place, and in the meantime the community is being tried even further as they try to give what they can to help those in need. You are right. My family has chosen to live in this area when they could have moved on and become much more wealthy elsewhere. I'm not worried about my cousins, I'm worried about the children in my mother's classroom. These children will one day be responsible for our country.

There are people working to get jobs brought to the area, and I truly believe that they will succeed -- eventually. In the meantime there are families without jobs. And that affects everyone in the community.

I'm sorry if I got off track here.

Edited to untangle a sentence.