How do you do it?

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by bberkley

Did you get to see him shoot, Sir?

Nope, 'fraid not, we were in the Headquarters.

Maybe next time.

I told him that we enjoyed the video and that he was pretty good.

TR

[jatx]

On the extractor issue, when you are preparing to carry a 1911 in Condition 1, is the proper technique to:

1. Insert a full mag
2. Thumb the slide release
3. Drop the mag and top it off
4. Reinsert the mag?

I was taught not to drop a round directly into the chamber before releasing the slide, as it may cause the extractor to break at a bad time. However, I was also told by someone recently not to top off my mags and reinsert with a round in the chamber. Any truth to that?

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by jatx

On the extractor issue, when you are preparing to carry a 1911 in Condition 1, is the proper technique to:

1. Insert a full mag
2. Thumb the slide release
3. Drop the mag and top it off
4. Reinsert the mag?

I was taught not to drop a round directly into the chamber before releasing the slide, as it may cause the extractor to break at a bad time. However, I was also told by someone recently not to top off my mags and reinsert with a round in the chamber. Any truth to that?

I agree with not dropping a round into the chamber - It's a safety issue above and beyond potential extractor problems. The round is supposed to slide up the face of the slide and under the extractor lip from the bottom. The extractor was not intended to "snap" over the rim of a cartridge. I can't think of any reason not to top off a quality magazine. It's no different than reloading a full magazine with a round still in the chamber. Just make sure it's properly seated when youre done. Some cheaper mags will have too much pressure against the bottom of the slide to seat properly when full. My .02 - Peregrino

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

I agree with not dropping a round into the chamber - It's a safety issue above and beyond potential extractor problems. The round is supposed to slide up the face of the slide and under the extractor lip from the bottom. The extractor was not intended to "snap" over the rim of a cartridge. I can't think of any reason not to top off a quality magazine. It's no different than reloading a full magazine with a round still in the chamber. Just make sure it's properly seated when youre done. Some cheaper mags will have too much pressure against the bottom of the slide to seat properly when full. My .02 - Peregrino

Concur.

Sound advice. The admonition not to top off the mag is to reduce the drag on the bottom of the slide when the weapon cycles. After all, it was never designed to cycle with the slide forward on a full mag, but that doesn't mean it won't. If it works in practice, EVERYTIME with your ammo, mags, and weapon, then it should be okay for carry that way.

TR

[jatx]

Thank you, gentlemen.

[Pattaya]

1. Insert magazine
2. Release slide or run the slide (weak hand over the top of the slide)

3. Press check / chamber check (feel chamber in the dark)
4. Tactical reload (eyes on the threat area)
5. Place partial mag back in the pouch (last position) or top it off

[jbour13]

I never use the slide release. No way you'll catch me doing it. Fine motor skills are the first to go when SHTF. Big Dumb movements such as weak hand over or weak handed pinching will prevail.

I have been taught to tap, rap and weak hand pinch grip the slide. I makes sense to still maintain muzzle awareness and be able to pump rounds into an aggressor that is closing the gap. I know that with me it also lowers my center of gravity, and makes it easier/ quicker to get into a wide stance. I do this so it's easier to put the non-firing arm up to block a person with a knife or other head smashing equipment. It gives me enough room in front of the muzzle to still fire without depressing the slide rearward and causing a malfunction.

On the chambering issue. I will only chamber a round from the magazine, safe my weapon and then top off the mag. Most companies advertise the pistol as a mag capacity (whatever the mag capacity is)+1. I do it and it works with my ammo and my pistols.

I'm no expert, just do what I'm told and practice, practice and practice.

[jbour13]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

Good thread...... YIS - Peregrino

To expand on the catching the magazine stuff. I know that we all pay good money for magazines (H&K mags are damn expensive) but again I've been taught to not rely on gravity to remove the mag from the magwell. Nothing worse than being in the heat of the moment and not being able to slam the fresh mag home because the old one never made it out. Seconds, even half seconds could cost you dearly. Muscle memory is key, we know it and that's why it's critical to practice those difficult skills repeatedly (not excessively, creates bad habits) and understanding your limits.

I make it a habit on mag changes to hit the mag release, grasp the mag (non-firing hand) and in a fluid movement make a slashing/ stabbing movement past the non-firing side leg and release the mag at the full extent of the movement. Reversing the movement should put you back in a ready position to retrieve a fresh mag. An empty magazine is of no use in a bad situation. If you let gravity do it's job and you drop a fresh magazine in the dark right next to the one that is expended, chances are you'll be so spun up that you won't be able to tell the difference in weight between the two before it's too late.

Practice moving while doing IA drills and reloads. Remember to breathe, in that time that an action occours that you identify as a threat your body will tense and rob your brain of O2. To think clearly you need it. And don't forget that the end of your pistol is a hell of a weapon if things get too tight.

[APLP]

Originally Posted by jbour13

I never use the slide release. No way you'll catch me doing it. Fine motor skills are the first to go when SHTF. Big Dumb movements such as weak hand over or weak handed pinching will prevail.

I can think of a few situations where you might not have the option of releasing the slide to chamber a round with a support hand, best to at least be familiar with a single handed slide release technique in IMHO.

[jbour13]

Originally Posted by APLP

I can think of a few situations where you might not have the option of releasing the slide to chamber a round with a support hand, best to at least be familiar with a single handed slide release technique in IMHO.

Understood, but depending on your pistol you can use any protrusion to drop the slide using the rear sight. This is a problem with tritium/novak/meprolight sights. They all lack an edge in which you can catch the rear sight on. Use the pocket/ pocket flap on your rear to do this. If kneeling use the heel of your boot or shoe. The possibilities are not as hard to come by as you'd think. Like I said, know your limits and practice, practice, practice.

My recommendation is to give it a try, use inert training rounds (snap caps) and maintain muzzle awareness when doing so. I can do it with my H&K's, my Sig 229, and my Colt 1991A1. The Kimber is a bit of a challenge but still doable.

[APLP]

Originally Posted by jbour13

Understood, but depending on your pistol you can use any protrusion to drop the slide using the rear sight. This is a problem with tritium/novak/meprolight sights. They all lack an edge in which you can catch the rear sight on. Use the pocket/ pocket flap on your rear to do this. If kneeling use the heel of your boot or shoe. The possibilities are not as hard to come by as you'd think. Like I said, know your limits and practice, practice, practice.

My recommendation is to give it a try, use inert training rounds (snap caps) and maintain muzzle awareness when doing so. I can do it with my H&K's, my Sig 229, and my Colt 1991A1. The Kimber is a bit of a challenge but still doable.

I only meant to respond to your "you'll never catch me", doing a slide stop release manipulation. I am all for gross motor skills and muscle memory, but in the particular scenerio we are discussing it would be stupid in my opinion to overlook just releasing the damn slide release with the firing hand as the weapon is indexed and presented towards the threat. If an individual does not know how to manupulate the slide release with either the firing or non firing hand they surely have one less club in the bag.

[Peregrino]

OK Guys, I wrote this a couple days ago as part of a lesson plan I'm preparing for work. I am tossing it out here for comment. This is a tried and proven technique. It is ONE OF the techniques I use personally. IT IS NOT A 100% SOLUTION TO ANYTHING!! Nothing is. It is a technique that will serve well in most circumstances. Some of the earlier posts here make very valid points about gravity drops, etc (just one of the reasons I think Glocks are grossly overrated). Input is welcome, just remember - I can't include every "what if" and still have something that can be taught on a range in less than five minutes. If you're feeling bashful, send a PM. My .02 - Peregrino

Shooters must be continuously aware of the amount of ammunition remaining in their weapons. Armed encounters may not be resolved with just the ammunition in the operator’s weapon. Additional immediate threats or follow-on engagements may require the shooter to reload before he can continue his mission. The shooter’s objective is to always have the maximum amount of ammunition available for dealing with any “unexpected” circumstances.

There are two types of reload: under pressure, and not under pressure. Any time you the shooter are at risk of being shot, you are reloading under pressure. The only time a reload counts is when it’s for real. To that end reloads of primary and backup weapons must be “second nature.” In order to reinforce the teaching point, all reloads that you/the students do during this Range Training Session will be performed as if you were “under pressure.” Practice should concentrate on smooth, continuous motion and programming the sequence into muscle memory. Shooters should concentrate on efficiency, striving to achieve the maximum economy of motion.

Use the following procedures when executing a magazine change on the pistol. As soon as the shooter decides to reload (while keeping the weapon oriented towards any perceived threat):

1. With the non-firing hand, reach down to the magazine pouch and grasp one magazine in the pouch. Extract the fresh magazine.

NOTE: If a problem exists in finding the magazine pouch, move the non-firing hand down to the belt and follow it to the pouch.

2. As the fresh magazine clears the pouch, position the index finger of the non-firing hand along the forward edge of the magazine, just below the tip of the bullet. Bring the fresh magazine to the butt of the weapon.

3. As the fresh magazine approaches the weapon use the thumb of the firing hand to depress the magazine release button, at the same time positioning the weapon so that gravity helps the expended magazine drop free.

4. As soon as the empty magazine clears the weapon, while keeping the weapon at eye level, insert the fresh magazine. Use the index finger to guide the magazine into the pistol. If required to facilitate the reload, twist the weapon toward the midsection of the body, keeping the weapon rotated with the magazine well toward the inside.

5. With the palm of the non-firing hand, seat the magazine in the weapon in one motion. Then, if required, disengage the slide stop, keeping the eyes toward the target.

NOTE: Left-handed shooters may use one of two methods to disengage the slide. When using the first method, slip the non-firing hand over the weapon, press the slide stop, and resume normal grip. The problem with this method is that the shooter is not looking at the slide stop and may miss it. When using the second method, grasp the slide with the non-firing hand and pull it to the rear. This action disengages the slide. Then, resume normal grip.

6. Extend the arms to the firing position, confirm a sight picture, and fire.

This technique is intended to be performed BEFORE the slide locks back on an empty magazine. The advantage to reloading with a round in the chamber is obvious – the weapon is never empty. To stay in the fight and be prepared for any contingencies, shooters should start thinking about reloading whenever they have expended approximately 2/3 of the ammunition in their primary weapon. The goal should be for the shooter to anticipate the reload and execute it before it becomes a “life or death” necessity. If the shooter has been monitoring his ammunition expenditure, there should be no more than a few rounds left in the discarded magazine. Let it fall and leave it – concentrate on the fight at hand. If you win the fight, or there is an appreciable lull in the action, you can recover the magazine later. If you lose – it’s no longer your problem! Rule of thumb: As soon as you finish one fight, “top off” before you start another one!

[Peregrino]

Here's one for the masses! A sanitized (to protect the guilty) PM requesting clarification of an obscure point I made earlier in this thread. (See, we don't laugh - MUCH! ) FWIW - Peregrino

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Re: Brass

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ORIGINAL QUOTE THAT STARTED OUR GUY THINKING: Originally Posted by Peregrino
The same thing goes for the "catch the round" stunt, or - just as bad - the catch the empty magazine stunt. Both of them waste time/motion, encourage fumbling, and are potentially fatal in a tactical environment. That's stuff you do on an admin target range that'll get you killed in real life. (Check the FBI stats for stories about police officers found dead with expended brass in their pocket - something they learned to do during annual quals on the range. ]]]

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HIS QUESTION: How do they catch expended brass? I'm sorry if this shows my ignorance but I really have no idea. I assume that the fired brass ends up there because the officers put it there? Expended brass ends up in my shirt pocket while I'm at the range all the time. I use a Weaver style stance and I am right handed so when my left hand comes across to the right, it cocks my shirt pocket open and then the extractor sends the brass into the booth wall and it bounces into my shirt pocket. This averages about once in fifty rounds in a dress shirt.

Are these guys picking up brass during a firefight, or actually trying to catch brass as it is extracted? I apologize if this is a dumb question but I have never heard of this kind of stunt

******

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MY REPLY: I've never heard of it either. (And you quoted me!) I wish you had included the link to the thread. Your quote is out of context and I don't remember exactly what it was about. I think we were discussing stupid things people do on ranges that carry over into the real world. IIRC it had nothing to do with brass. Back when (most) police officers still used revolvers, they were in the habit of catching the expended rounds when they dumped the cylinder and dropping them in their pants pocket. The "catching the round" that I referred to is not the same thing. When clearing your weapon (a pistol) with a round in the chamber, (I think the context was immediate action drills with a failure to fire or a stovepipe) some (a lot of) people cup their hand over the ejection port to catch the round in the chamber just so they don't have to pick it up off the ground. Makes it easier to check for primer indent, you can stick it back in the magazine, you don't have to find it/pick it up, etc., etc. My point was - people tend to concentrate on meaningless minutia (especially when training on flat ranges) that becomes stupid, sloppy habits that will get them killed on the street. I hope this explains things to your satisfaction. If not - holler, I'll try again. P

P.S. If this answers the question consider putting the whole thing on the original thread in the open forum. I don't mind looking dumb if it'll help clarify the point to somebody else who might be as confused as you were. ]

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HIS RESPONSE: It was the "How do you do it thread" http://www.professionalsoldiers.com...read.php?t=2567

Cops with old S&W's makes sense, you know, dumping expended brass into their hands, out of the cylinder and pocketing it. Reading your example of guys catching live rounds as they unchambered a semi, next to cops with empty brass in their pockets just confused my simple mind.

The point about sloppy habits and concentrating on minutia was apparent from context, but I absolutely had to ask because the image of some dipshit yanking the trigger in anticipation of trying to catch the brass, as it is extracted, just brings me to tears.

Additionally, there was the lingering fear that I was doing something horrible, dangerous and just plain wrong because brass ends up in one of my pockets occassionally while I shoot.

This must not be a good day for "understanding" what I read.

I will however laugh at my mental image of a "Kung fu" style range warrior test where the "Firearms Ninja/Priest" says: "When you can snatch the expended brass from the air you will be ready!"

If you want to post it for humor / ignorance feel free, it is sort of funny, but it is mostly me not paying correct attention to detail, and for that I apologize Sir.

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This guy deserves a !! He was holding the weight of the world! Got to love that Rotweiller "wrinkled forehead" look they get when they just can't quite figure something out. And the subsequent look of relief when it becomes clear to them. As for ********** - A little fun at your expense may help somebody else so don't worry about it. There is such a thing as a dumb question - this doesn't quite qualify. Peregrino

[Razor]

P, I don't think you mentioned in your step-by-step whether you intended the shooter to keep the weapon extended during reload, or if he is to pull his weapon hand back toward their torso, while keeping the weapon oriented toward the threat. You did say that after reload the shooter extends his arms to the firing position, so I'm inclined to think you prefer the 'pull the weapon close in' method, but it may be a good idea to spell that out in the instructions.

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Razor

P, I don't think you mentioned in your step-by-step whether you intended the shooter to keep the weapon extended during reload, or if he is to pull his weapon hand back toward their torso, while keeping the weapon oriented toward the threat. You did say that after reload the shooter extends his arms to the firing position, so I'm inclined to think you prefer the 'pull the weapon close in' method, but it may be a good idea to spell that out in the instructions.

Finally - somebody who wants to play! Razor, thanks I was starting to think I had "killed" the thread. The answer is no, I don't like or use what some people refer to as a "close guard" position while reloading. We have an (experienced) instructor who swears by it and demo's shooting from that position at every opportunity - he's good at what he does, but he's also practiced it to the point of being a circus stunt. I don't believe in what amounts to barely aimed fire. I do retract the pistol somewhat, but this is an issue of ergonomics. (I'm left-handed, I usually have to contort the gun [mess up my grip] a little to manipulate some of the controls - part of the reason I don't own a Sigg, even as much as I like the way they shoot.) To be honest it didn't occur to me that somebody might want to take their attention off the threat which is what usually happens when somebody retracts the weapon all the way during a reload. Observe novice competetive action shooters and you will invariably see them shift focus from threat (extended) to reload (close) and back to threat (extended). I prefer to teach keeping everything in the same "plane", perhaps dropping the pistol slightly to increase field of view, but keeping it where it can be brought back into action as smoothly as possible. When I say "the shooter extends his arms to the firing position" I'm actually saying "get/return to a solid firing platform and engage the threat." Basically - dress your shooting position and pull the trigger.

As an aside/extension of this discussion there are a lot more knowlegeable people writing about combat training. The significant trend (from my perspective) is the shift away from marksmanship and towards mindset. The important thing about this observation is how mindset applies to more than just lethal force encounters. Initial discussions focussed on COL Boyd's OODA Loop (discussions by/from a lot of people who didn't really understand the concept - buzz word of the day - or know how to explain it). Those discussions are now expanding to the point where they are actually useful to students of "personal conflict resolution". An example is the May issue of S.W.A.T. Magazine - the article "Clean Lines" by Scott Reitz. (I love my current job - except for the fact that I can't keep up with the professional reading and still do all the other work I'm supposed to do.) This is just food for thought, hopefully I've chummed the waters and incited a feeding frenzy. (Since I'm busy writing a Force on Force training/lesson plan that will concentrate on taking advantage of the mental game while applying some basic principles of low-light encounters.) Comments anyone? Peregrino