Shooting Drills

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by lksteve

ahem...and remind me, Counsel, which group were you in????

OK, I'll reel my neck in.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Wind. Wind - not reel.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Are you saying SFAUC guys can't shoot or I am mis-reading? I only know one, and he shoots very well.

We still use the 8 - to verying degrees depending on what we are doing. For example, I don't worry about breathing when I'm hammering.

I disagree about not being able to do 8 things at once - not at first of course, but eventually you don't have to think about them anymore. They have to become ingrained, but they are still there.

NDD:

You probably have ingrained many of the eight factors so you no longer consciously attempt to do them. Although there is no way to know if you are doing all eight at once, one thing I can bet on is that you are firing the shot when the barrel is pointed into your target. You have conditioned your finger to move when your eyes see.

My comment on SFAUC trained guys wasn't clear. Sorry. Long and quite hot week with 18 medics on a firing range.

Many guys going to SFAUC have little experience in the type of consistent speed and precision demanded by this and other courses of its nature. They learn the eight steady hold factors in class then head to ranges to put them into practice. However, if you just put eight things into a guys head that he must do at one time to make a good shot -- he will take those eight things with him and consciously attempt to do all eight. This sets the stage for guys not achieving what ever goal they may have envisioned for themselves and thus causes a mental obstacle. Guys tend to work themselves out of these issues but why would anyone want to start them out at a disadvantage I often wonder?

I do focus on position but also realize that in most shooting situations, the guy won't be in a good firing position so he must have the confidence to rely on his ability to pull the trigger when he sees his barrel is pointed into the target.

Our limitation tends to end up being the issued rifle, ammunition (particularly), and sighting system more so than a huge amount of human error.

Again -- am tired but I hope this explains things from my perspective at least.

Gene

[NousDefionsDoc]

Roger Brother Gene, as usual we agree more than disagree.

I think you are absolutely correct in your analysis and will only offer this in response - yes, I no longer have to think about them - unless I miss. When I do miss, it is my fault and I can usually trace it back to one of The Eight. I don't know of another way to get to unconscious competence than starting from the beginning and working through The Eight until they can be applied without conscious thought. If you have suggestions, please, pleeease share.

Stance - I don't kick feet after the first 1 minute. In fact, I will make them change their stance (strong foot forward, feet parallel, etc.) to show them they shoot from the waist up and they don't have to worry about where their feet are. The Eight are relative - The Stance doesn't have to be a book stance, as long as you have a relatively stable platform - but you do have to have a Stance. Does that make sense? Good firing position to me means being able to engage from the best possible position for the situation. Not specific degrees and angles.

The ability to pull the trigger means to me the ability to pull the trigger correctly. When he sees the barrel pointing at the target means he sees the barrel by way of its component part the front sight.

Speed, efficiency, economy of motion and the combat application of The Eight - all of which I call elegance - can only come from hours of repetitions as far as I know. But in order to get good solid hits under stress time after time - consistency - the fundamentals have to be applied. To do it in a fight, they have to be applied unconsciously

Breathing is a good one. A lot of people say it doesn't apply in combat shooting. I agree it doesn't apply to the individual shot the way we do with sniper shots. But I do breath when shooting. And I try to get breath control taken care of outside. A couple of deep ones and then a rhythm. And then another big one when done for the moment.

SFAUC, SFARTEAC, no combat shooting school in the world will give one the level of competence of which we are talking. They will give one the basics. competence will only come from hours and hours of practice. With a coach where possible - alone if not. Shooting is an individual skill to me.

[Polar Bear]

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

NDD:

You probably have ingrained many of the eight factors so you no longer consciously attempt to do them. Although there is no way to know if you are doing all eight at once, one thing I can bet on is that you are firing the shot when the barrel is pointed into your target. You have conditioned your finger to move when your eyes see.

My comment on SFAUC trained guys wasn't clear. Sorry. Long and quite hot week with 18 medics on a firing range.

Many guys going to SFAUC have little experience in the type of consistent speed and precision demanded by this and other courses of its nature. They learn the eight steady hold factors in class then head to ranges to put them into practice. However, if you just put eight things into a guys head that he must do at one time to make a good shot -- he will take those eight things with him and consciously attempt to do all eight. This sets the stage for guys not achieving what ever goal they may have envisioned for themselves and thus causes a mental obstacle. Guys tend to work themselves out of these issues but why would anyone want to start them out at a disadvantage I often wonder?

I do focus on position but also realize that in most shooting situations, the guy won't be in a good firing position so he must have the confidence to rely on his ability to pull the trigger when he sees his barrel is pointed into the target.

Our limitation tends to end up being the issued rifle, ammunition (particularly), and sighting system more so than a huge amount of human error.

Again -- am tired but I hope this explains things from my perspective at least.

Gene

So are you saying that the eight principles can never be achieved or they must be taught in a broken down fashion until each one is mastered to be able to achieve the eight principles?

[NousDefionsDoc]

BTW Gene

Long and quite hot week with 18 medics on a firing range.

WTH? It will never get any easier....

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Gene, what drills do you recommend for novice shooters?

RL:

I simply can't offer much advice unless you can state your end state.

I do know this much -- no matter if you are shooting a MG or a pistol. Condition your finger to move when you eyes see a good sight picture.

Drills depend on the discipline you are entering, the time you have available, range conditions, and a bunch of other variables. Advice?

1. Determine the discipline you want to dominate. High Power, Three Gun, IPSC, IDPA, Cowboy Action, the various shotgun sports, Bullseye Pistol, etc. "I want to just plink" isn't a discipline. If you want to become very good, you better compete in what ever discipline you desire. That is the ony way civilians can assess their skills with a set of conditions and standards. Realistic or not in terms of combat, that is the hard truth in terms of becoming a fine marksman.

2. Study the discipline you have chosen and go to some of the matches to see if it meets your needs. If it does, it best become your passion -- to a point. Take my word for it -- to a point.

3. Set short and long term goals that relate to your chosen discipline. These will be directly related to your end state. Write them down, do a real good sanity check on them, change them as you need to in order to be realistic concerning every factor that can interfere with achieving these goals, then put them on a calendar using the first person and without any ambiguity.

4. Your training will be determined by the discipline you choose. You have brains and know what you need to focus your attention towards. Set a training plan in conjunction with your goals that is realistic and write down exactly what you will do during each training event. How many rounds, fired at what range, from what postion. And what you demand from yourself in terms of results.

5. Be able to look at your performance and self without emotion. Make conclusions about your performance in terms of your strengths and use those strengths to eliminate short falls.

6. Always have another goal to achieve as you will achieve the ones you set.

Other advice? Sure.

Learn what 'calling your shots' is and put it to good use in your development. If your calls are on spot, you have trained your eyes to see. If your shots are all in the X ring at the same time, you have a good zero and your finger has been trained to pull when your eyes have seen.

Gene

[badcarma]

NDD

I have a dumb question I'm self teaching pistol CQB and other then the FM you posted about is there any other good books to read? Right now im reading the 5th edition of combat handgunnery by Massad Ayoob is this a good book for me to learn from?

Thanks Sir!

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

1. Determine the discipline you want to dominate. "I want to just plink" isn't a discipline.

that's the mindset...subtle don't get it...

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by badcarma

NDD

I have a dumb question I'm self teaching pistol CQB and other then the FM you posted about is there any other good books to read? Right now im reading the 5th edition of combat handgunnery by Massad Ayoob is this a good book for me to learn from?

Thanks Sir!

Ok, numbah 1 - I din't post the FM, the TS did. Numba 2 - you can't "self teach pistol" and you have no idea what CQB is. Pay the money and get a good Instructor. Otherwise you will develop some bad habits that will be very hard to break. You can't learn this stuff from a book. Books are to give you ideas when you have mastered the basics. That's why we don't do the correspondence course thing anymore.

I personally don't care for Mr. Ayoob much - caveat: I don't know him but from his writing.

Seriously, find a good Instructor if you want to do this.

[badcarma]

I want to be able to dominate any hostile sitation.

[badcarma]

Sir would you know of anyone in the Fort Campbell area?

[NousDefionsDoc]

Condition your finger to move when you eyes see a good sight picture.

LOL - I win! I win! That's one Gene - #4! And I'm claiming #1 as well because you mentioned stance first! By the end of the week, we'll have come full circle.

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by badcarma

I want to be able to dominate any hostile sitation.

a rather broad goal...i would suggest you determine the most immediate threat...pick your most likely tools (weapons) and determine how you will achieve mastery of those tools (weapons)...then you pick the next most likely threat, work on that while you refine your mastery of your first priority...then...

it never ends...you only die eventually...let's hope for old age...

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by badcarma

I want to be able to dominate any hostile sitation.

LOL - you keep talking about Ayoob and CQB, you're going to get your first chance very quickly.

Now hush - I'm gloating.