Are we at war with Islam?

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by tk27

Neither al-Assad in Syria, the Houses of Saud and Al-Sabah, Mubarak in Egypt , or any other government in the Middle East wants the return of the Caliphate. To do so would be to relinquish power; this is why all these governments have aided in the fight against AQ, albeit to different degrees. Yes, this includes Syria.

You write like you're a professor as if you actually know the answers. Tell me something you ever been in the middle east, seen or worked with the people you speak of?

You talk of middle eastern "governments" like the people actually have a choice. All these governments you speak of "Yes, this includes Syria" are friggin dictatorships and the very reason they do not want the return of caliphate you speak of.

You don't agree with me, go and flip off (insult publically) the saudi king, let me know how many rights you were afforded before they throw in jail or worse.

Get real, we've written in this very thread why these dictators have taken on "al quada" it has nothing to do with fighting terrorism and everything to do with being tribal, a thousand years behind the civilized world, and a huge fear that the terrorists might gain a foothold in their dictatorship run countries. The house of saud didn't get involved in hunting terrorists until the terrorists targeted the "house of saud", other wise they would have left them alone.

Also don't apply 21st century politics to 10th century camel jockies, these idiots still teach (in their own universites) that there is only one true religion and that is islam and one day it will rule the world..... Oh and by the way, they also teach the same thing here in the religious tolerant United States.

TS

[tk27]

Originally Posted by CoLawman

I would say that we have done considerably more than bomb in retaliation for 9/11. To suggest we would have to .........bomb tomorrow in retaliation ignores the fact we are fully engaged in a war against those that would bomb the Sears Towers. Thus we stay the course (with renewed bipartisan support) if such a thing were to occur. All that goes out the window if a Sears attack was linked to Iran of course..........then you know where we bomb tomorrow!

I absolutely agree that we have responded to 9/11 the right way. What I intended to say was, if we are at war with Islam and we get attacked, where do we respond? There is no command and control of Islam, do we nuke Mecca? If this could actually work we would have threatened to do so already. This is the problem, and the problem of saying we are at war with something that we can’t confine to a geographic area (war with Islam).

Originally Posted by CoLawman

When Hezbollah killed our Marines we failed to focus on the cause. When Buckley was kidnapped and killed we failed to focus. When our embassy in Iran was invaded we lost focus. The menace grows while our articulate and analytical civilian leaders continue to examine the big picture.

There was no specific agenda or goals by these groups?

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

You write like you're a professor as if you actually know the answers. Tell me something you ever been in the middle east, seen or worked with the people you speak of?

Sir, if my language is pompous it is because I am a guest on this board, the mods have made it perfectly clear that poor language and immaturity is not welcome. I probably go overboard with the five-dollar words in response to this. As far as an ivory tower arrogance in my thinking? Probably, I imagine reading and studying will do this, this is why I consider it important to listen and talk to people who have BTDT. No I have not worked with the people I speak of.

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

You talk of middle eastern "governments" like the people actually have a choice. All these governments you speak of "Yes, this includes Syria" are friggin dictatorships and the very reason they do not want the return of caliphate you speak of.

What’s wrong with dictators self interest coinciding with our national interest and us exploiting that?

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by tk27

What’s wrong with dictators self interest coinciding with our national interest and us exploiting that?

Nothing, just don't use the word "government" as if it really exists anywhere in the middle east. There are no governments just dictatorships in varying degrees.


Use all the ten dollar words you desire, just be prepared to stand behind them.

TS

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by tk27

This is the problem, and the problem of saying we are at war with something that we can’t confine to a geographic area (war with Islam).

You know nothing about war fighting and it shows.

We've not fought wars based on geographic area for decades but in dimensions. Just as we are now with islam and its currently fought worldwide and in five dimensions.

You knowledge of warfighting is sorely lacking.

TS

[smp52]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Just as we are now with islam and its currently fought worldwide and in five dimensions.

What irks me, particularly from the socialist left, is that everytime the United States takes actions and drops precision tactical weapons (bombs), the standard "We're bombing everything and anything" spin cycle starts up. If someone said that in WWII it would make sense. We did do that and for good reason (and primarily technological limitations). Are we doing a good job of selling the idea that we're fighting this war on multiple dimensions? I was told earlier in this thread by the Colonel that education is the key. We educate people by teaching them lessons by bloodying them up, by working with them, by helping them, etc.

Recently at a Quality Assurance meeting, many of us were discussing how to let the powers that be understand that quality over quantity is a good thing and not mutually exclusive (at least in the ammo world).

Many of our efforts in structuring quality assurance have not historically worked well simply because people, who sign on (and enforce) don't actually buy the idea in the first place nor has the big bureaucracy moved its focus from the purchase and sort mentality to correct, prevent, and get it right the first time (in the volume necessary). A mentality of attrition warfare still exists. People at many levels preach Toyota's manufacturing principles, but only in sound. In application, it becomes business as usual. Our conclusion was we need to do a better job in selling the idea everytime we encounter a problem or have a chancce to speak to ANYONE for that matter.

All the publicity, even from the Government, focuses on the tactical side of 'big war'. This idea of 'asses need to be kicked' is good and quite necessary, but it can't become the rally cry or motto. People, the loud mouth right and left, are focusing merely on kicking ass (Direct Action) or its prevention, but what really intrigues me is your (all QP's and other services) UW/FID role along with how we use other tools of warfare (political, economic, diplomatic, social, ....)in the bag with strategic purpose - remove the jihadist threat.

My Dad used to tune to the Voice of America on shortwave radio before cable television was allowed in India. That and the BBC were the only sources for news broadcast not within socialist government control. What type of resources are we pouring into VOA? I don't know anymore. Obviously the answer is out there, but I'd bet that most Americans don't even know such a thing exists. This definitely goes back to what the Colonel said and it is quite a large and duanting task. From our side, are we even speaking the same language with some of these folks to get them to listen/learn/understand?

I also take exception to this quote in what was posted earlier:

The first major war of the 21st Century is the war between Western Judeo Christian Civilization and Wahhabi Islam.* It may last a few more years, or most of this century.* It will last until the Wahhabi branch of Islam fades away, or gives up its ambitions for regional and global dominance and Jihad, or until Western Civilization gives into the Jihad.

Focusing merely on western civilization or the Judeo-Christians Vs. Salafists/Jihadists/Islamofascits is myopic. These guys are fighting everyone. Not just the west. Fighting the biggest dog on the block gets the attention of everyone, but their goals are to become the Alpha of the pack that includes African tribes, Hindus, Buddhists, Athiests, et. al. Terrorism didn't start with 9-11, it just caught our (American) short attention span.

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

This "speech" was an opinion piece created by Ben Caspit, a journalist writing for Israel's Ma'ariv newspaper, who expressed his viewpoint in the form of a "Suggested Speech for Prime Minister Olmert." Caspit's editorial has since been translated into English and widely circulated via e-mail, losing its original attribution in cyberspace and creating the impression that it is the text of a speech actually delivered by Prime Minister Olmert. (Just posting the facts.) TS


Ladies and gentlemen, leaders of the world, I, the Prime Minister of Israel, am speaking to you from Jerusalem in the face of the terrible pictures from Kfar Kana. Any human heart, wherever it is, must sicken and recoil at the sight of such pictures.

There are no words of comfort that can mitigate the enormity of this tragedy. Still, I am looking you straight in the eye and telling you that the State of Israel will continue its military campaign in Lebanon.

The Israel Defense Forces will continue to attack targets from which missiles and Katyusha rockets are fired at hospitals, old age homes and kindergartens in Israel. I have instructed the security forces and the IDF to continue to hunt for the Katyusha stockpiles and launch sites from which these savages are bombarding the State of Israel.

We will not hesitate, we will not apologize and we will not back off. If they continue to launch missiles into Israel from Kfar Kana, we will continue to bomb Kfar Kana. Today, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow. Here, there and everywhere.

The children of Kfar Kana could now be sleeping peacefully in their homes, unmolested, had the agents of the devil not taken over their land and turned the lives of our children into hell. Ladies and gentlemen, it's time you understood: the Jewish state will no longer be trampled upon.

We will no longer allow anyone to exploit population centers in order to bomb our citizens. No one will be able to hide anymore behind women and children in order to kill our women and children. This anarchy is over. You can condemn us, you can boycott us, you can stop visiting us and, if necessary, we will stop visiting you.

Today I am serving as the voice of six million bombarded Israeli citizens who serve as the voice of six million murdered Jews who were melted down to dust and ashes by savages in Europe. In both cases, those responsible for these evil acts were, and are, barbarians devoid of all humanity, who set themselves one simple goal: to wipe the Jewish people off the face of the earth, as Adolph Hitler said, or to wipe the State of Israel off the map, as Mahmoud Ahmedinjad proclaims.

And you - just as you did not take those words seriously then, you are ignoring them again now. And that, ladies and gentlemen, leaders of the world, will not happen again. Never again will we wait for bombs that never came to hit the gas chambers. Never again will we wait for salvation that never arrives. Now we have our own air force. The Jewish people are now capable of standing up to those who seek their destruction - those people will no longer be able to hide behind women and children. They will no longer be able to evade their responsibility.

Every place from which a Katyusha is fired into the State of Israel will be a legitimate target for us to attack. This must be stated clearly and publicly, once and for all. You are welcome to judge us, to ostracize us, to boycott us and to vilify us. But to kill us? Absolutely not.

Four months ago I was elected by hundreds of thousands of citizens to the office of Prime Minister of the government of Israel, on the basis of my plan for unilaterally withdrawing from 90 percent of the areas of Judea and Samaria, the birth place and cradle of the Jewish people; to end most of the occupation and to enable the Palestinian people to turn over a new leaf and to calm things down until conditions are ripe for attaining a permanent settlement between us.

The Prime Minister who preceded me, Ariel Sharon, made a full withdrawal from the Gaza Strip back to the international border, and gave the Palestinians there a chance to build a new reality for themselves. The Prime Minister who preceded him, Ehud Barak, ended the lengthy Israeli presence in Lebanon and pulled the IDF back to the international border, leaving the land of the cedars to flourish, develop and establish its democracy and its economy.

What did the State of Israel get in exchange for all of this? Did we win even one minute of quiet? Was our hand, outstretched in peace, met with a handshake of encouragement? Ehud Barak's peace initiative at Camp David let loose on us a wave of suicide bombers who smashed and blew to pieces over 1,000 citizens, men, women and children. I don't remember you being so enraged then. Maybe that happened because we did not allow TV close-ups of the dismembered body parts of the Israeli youngsters at the Dolphinarium? Or of the shattered lives of the people butchered while celebrating the Passover seder at the Park Hotel in Netanya?

What can you do - that's the way we are. We don't wave body parts at the camera. We grieve quietly. We do not dance on the roofs at the sight of the bodies of our enemy's children - we express genuine sorrow and regret. That is the monstrous behavior of our enemies. Now they have risen up against us. Tomorrow they will rise up against you. You are already familiar with the murderous taste of this terror. And you will taste more.
And Ariel Sharon's withdrawal from Gaza -- what did it get us? A barrage of Kassem missiles fired at peaceful settlements and the kidnapping of soldiers.

Then too, I don't recall you reacting with such alarm. And for six years, the withdrawal from Lebanon has drawn the vituperation and crimes of a dangerous, extremist Iranian agent, who took over an entire country in the name of religious fanaticism, and is trying to take Israel hostage on his way to Jerusalem - and from there to Paris and London.

An enormous terrorist infrastructure has been established by Iran on our border, threatening our citizens, growing stronger before our very eyes, awaiting the moment when the land of the Ayatollahs becomes a nuclear power in order to bring us to our knees. And make no mistake - we won't go down alone. You, the leaders of the free and enlightened world, will go down along with us.

So today, here and now, I am putting an end to this parade of hypocrisy. I don't recall such a wave of reaction in the face of the 100 citizens killed every single day in Iraq. Sunnis kill Shiites who kill Sunnis, and all of them kill Americans - and the world remains silent. And I am hard pressed to recall a similar reaction when the Russians destroyed entire villages and burned down large cities in order to repress the revolt in Chechnya. And when NATO bombed Kosovo for almost three months and crushed the civilian population - then you also kept silent.

What is it about us, the Jews, the minority, the persecuted, that arouses this cosmic sense of justice in you? What do we have that all the others don't? In a loud clear voice, looking you straight in the eye, I stand before you openly and I will not apologize. I will not capitulate. I will not whine. This is a battle for our freedom. For our humanity. For the right to lead normal lives within our recognized, legitimate borders. It is also your battle.

I pray and I believe that now you will understand that. Because if you don't, you may regret it later, when it's too late.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by tk27

What’s wrong with dictators self interest coinciding with our national interest and us exploiting that?

The problem is that our national interests are often defined by politicians whose long range focus is the next election. That means that they have 2 year, 4 year and 6 year focii. For instance as long as I can remember we, in the military, have defined the rise of islamic fundamentalism as a threat to our national security interests and it took 9/11 for the political functionaries to wake up, albeit temporarily, to this threat. Politicians who align themselves with with what they have often inadequately defined as our "national interest" do so mainly for personal political gain which does not go beyond the next election cycle. So the problem is not our alignment with some dictator and exploiting it to our advantage, the problem is the correct identification of just what are and are not in our national interest.

[CPTAUSRET]

Trip_Wire:

That speach sounded too good to be true! Too bad!

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/olmert.asp

Thanks CPT!

[Richard]

IMO, dealing with a group like Hizbollah is like dealing with teen punks...the only thing that teen punks and young Islamic terrorist punks are motivated by are (1) fear for their personal safety and (2) public humiliation. A plan to deal with such punks is simple. In fact, it involves just three steps:

1. Ignore the UN and its call for a restrained response . In the case of Lebanon, Israel should act decisively with the intention of killing as many members of Hezbollah as possible,...using proper interrogation methods whenever it is necessary to find them.

2. After Hezbollah is reduced to 12 living members, heed the UN call for restraint by making humiliation Israel’s top priority. Sparing the lives of the last dozen Hezbollah members – one for each of Israel’s twelve tribes - will not necessarily be an act of compassion. I would recommend that each of the twelve be subjected to mandatory sex changes to maximize deterrence through public humiliation. It’s only fair since they’ve been beheading people for years. But if the public won't allow such action, I suppose it would be good enough to dress the last twelve – I would call them the “Dainty Dozen” – in pink thong underwear before putting them on display in cages in downtown Tel Aviv. Their cages could also be painted fuschia, equipped with one Toy Poodle apiece, a stack of Playgirl Magazines, and a faux leopard skin bathrobe just in case it gets cold at night. Their diet would consist solely of quiche, French pastries, and peach wine coolers to help numb the pain of their embarrassment.

3. Install a UN Peacekeeping force of 12 American feminist professors from Berzerkley or any similiar university. This special peacekeeping force will be comprised of feminists with PhDs in psychology or multi-cultural studies (by far, the most annoying feminists) who will meet with the “Dainty Dozen” on a daily basis to ask them the crucial question, “Why do you hate us?” These types of feminists certainly annoy the hell out of me whenever I run into them at academic conferences and the like. Imagine how irritated the terrorists will be when they are sentenced to a lifetime of sharing their feelings with a feminist who refuses to wear a burqua.

If you agree with the plan, you can make it a reality by voting for me in 2008. If you don’t like it, just vote for Hillary. That should give them all one more reason to hate us.

Richard

[dennisw]

3. Install a UN Peacekeeping force of 12 American feminist professors from Berzerkley or any similiar university. This special peacekeeping force will be comprised of feminists with PhDs in psychology or multi-cultural studies (by far, the most annoying feminists) who will meet with the “Dainty Dozen” on a daily basis to ask them the crucial question, “Why do you hate us?”

I believe subjecting them to feminists would be construed as cruel and unusual punishment.

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by dennisw

I believe subjecting them to feminists would be construed as cruel and unusual punishment.

i see it as two birds, one stone...

[Ambush Master]

Originally Posted by CoLawman

Tk,
Mr. Kraft's article IMO cuts through the BS. The central theme being we destroy them! You cannot negotiate or rehabilitate these terrorists. You must kill them.


We must fight them now and destroy them now.


There are those times when someone needs their ass kicked.

In the infamous words of Clint Smith on 60 Minutes II a couple of years ago:

"Some people need to be shot"

They want a fight, we should give them no LESS!!!

Take care.
Martin

[CoLawman]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by tk27

I absolutely agree that we have responded to 9/11 the right way. What I intended to say was, if we are at war with Islam and we get attacked, where do we respond? There is no command and control of Islam, do we nuke Mecca? If this could actually work we would have threatened to do so already. This is the problem, and the problem of saying we are at war with something that we can’t confine to a geographic area (war with Islam).

tk,

You write as if you have concluded that the terrorists should be categorized or classified as individuals acting independent of command and control. Terrorists are not like other menaces found around the world, like; burglars, robbers, vandals, car thieves, and rapists. Those are menaces that ply their trade without consideration of geographical borders.

Terrorists ply their trade without consideration of geographical borders. However their actions can be attributed to definable "command and control" entities. A recent example is the homegrown terrorists of Britain. At first blush this example would seem to support your premise. But upon closer examination one learns that orders were coming from Pakistan with a connection to Al Queda.

Ayatollahs, Imams, and State sponsors of terror are the Command and Control.
They provide the training, funding, technology, documents, etc. to the Islamic terrorists throughout the world.

They also provide the recruitment and propaganda vital to their missions. POTUS understands this. Review his speeches since 9/11 and you will find ample proof that he is on track. Whether he continues to act on his knowledge and vision is dependent upon when the next election is. (This point was aptly covered by a QP prior to my post).

[tk27]

Originally Posted by CoLawman

Terrorists ply their trade without consideration of geographical borders. However their actions can be attributed to definable "command and control" entities. A recent example is the homegrown terrorists of Britain. At first blush this example would seem to support your premise. But upon closer examination one learns that orders were coming from Pakistan with a connection to Al Queda.

Yes and it appears that because AQ leadership played too much of a central role the plot was broken up. They have and will learn from these mistakes. Cells will continue more and more to be homegrown and self-organizing, inspired by bin Laden’s movement but not under its control.

Originally Posted by CoLawman

Ayatollahs, Imams, and State sponsors of terror are the Command and Control.
They provide the training, funding, technology, documents, etc. to the Islamic terrorists throughout the world.

What state actively sponsors AQ? The Iranian’s support Hezbollah as do the Syrians (some would say that after Syria’s withdrawal from Lebanon ’04 they lost influence to restrain Hez and this explains Hezbollah’s recent belligerence), Libya cut ties with terrorists for foreign investment, and Saddam supported Hamas but not AQ.

Refusing to distinguish between AQ and Hamas, Hezbollah and other Islamist groups only benefit them. It does them the benefit of aggregating them all together, this allows them to constitute themselves as a global jihad and only validates this to the Islamic world. This is inherently counterproductive to any wise strategy designed to disaggregate a global insurgency. (See LTC. Killcullen’s Countering Global Insurgency)

I have in PDF (too big to attach) James Fallows recent article in The Atlantic, We Win.: A New Strategy For The Fight Against Terror. It is very thought provoking and I think a good assessment of where we are and where we are headed. It draws from Brian Michael Jenkins at RAND (I believe a QP also), LTC Killcullen, Michael Scheuer, Peter Bergen, Martin van Crevald, Bruce Hoffman, Daniel Benjamin, and James Woosley among others. I would be interested to hear everyone’s thoughts on it. I could make a summary of it as well as find a host for it if there is interest for a thread.

[Richard]

Here's a good summary of the current situation as I see it.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/toons/asay/asay1.asp

Richard