07-28-2006, 19:26
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#46
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,691
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
I disagree with the entire concept of "Law Enforcement Only".  |
I'm with you.... I believe that everyone should have access to the same "tools", however I also think there should be a limit to the training.
__________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." - John Steinbeck, "The Law"
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Smokin Joe is offline
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07-28-2006, 19:28
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#47
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Castle Rock, CO
Posts: 2,531
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Smokin Joe
however I also think there should be a limit to the training.
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why...?
__________________
""A man must know his destiny. if he does not recognize it, then he is lost. By this I mean, once, twice, or at the very most, three times, fate will reach out and tap a man on the shoulder. if he has the imagination, he will turn around and fate will point out to him what fork in the road he should take, if he has the guts, he will take it.""- GEN George S. Patton
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lksteve is offline
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07-29-2006, 12:32
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#48
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,691
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Limits on training
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Originally Posted by lksteve
why...?
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I don't think everyone has a need to know the most current TTP's that are winning wars. Especially on the team tactics level. As far as the individual fighter or shooter goes I have no problem leaving it wide open.
__________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." - John Steinbeck, "The Law"
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Smokin Joe is offline
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07-29-2006, 19:36
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#49
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Castle Rock, CO
Posts: 2,531
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Smokin Joe
I don't think everyone has a need to know the most current TTP's that are winning wars. Especially on the team tactics level.
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understood...how do you define "militia" with regards to the Second Amendment...?
__________________
""A man must know his destiny. if he does not recognize it, then he is lost. By this I mean, once, twice, or at the very most, three times, fate will reach out and tap a man on the shoulder. if he has the imagination, he will turn around and fate will point out to him what fork in the road he should take, if he has the guts, he will take it.""- GEN George S. Patton
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lksteve is offline
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07-29-2006, 19:47
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#50
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Redneck Knifemaker
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 174
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lksteve
understood...how do you define "militia" with regards to the Second Amendment...?
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I can't speak for Joe, but IMHO the militia is the citizens
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Ken Brock is offline
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07-29-2006, 19:53
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#51
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Castle Rock, CO
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ken Brock
I can't speak for Joe, but IMHO the militia is the citizens
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i'm not trying to bust Joe's chops...but if the citizens are the miltia, what level of tactical knowledge should be kept from them...? what level of tactical knowledge should be EXPECTED of them...?
__________________
""A man must know his destiny. if he does not recognize it, then he is lost. By this I mean, once, twice, or at the very most, three times, fate will reach out and tap a man on the shoulder. if he has the imagination, he will turn around and fate will point out to him what fork in the road he should take, if he has the guts, he will take it.""- GEN George S. Patton
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lksteve is offline
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07-29-2006, 19:57
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#52
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,823
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lksteve
i'm not trying to bust Joe's chops...but if the citizens are the miltia, what level of tactical knowledge should be kept from them...? what level of tactical knowledge should be EXPECTED of them...?
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The ability to take care of themselves under difficult conditions, and to load and fire the standard service rifle, of course.
They can be drilled on the rest when they are mustered.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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07-29-2006, 20:07
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#53
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Castle Rock, CO
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Reaper
The ability to take care of themselves under difficult conditions, and to load and fire the standard service rifle, of course.
They can be drilled on the rest when they are mustered.
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it is not my point to create argument, but at some point after being mustered, they return to civilian life...then what...?
__________________
""A man must know his destiny. if he does not recognize it, then he is lost. By this I mean, once, twice, or at the very most, three times, fate will reach out and tap a man on the shoulder. if he has the imagination, he will turn around and fate will point out to him what fork in the road he should take, if he has the guts, he will take it.""- GEN George S. Patton
Last edited by lksteve; 07-29-2006 at 20:10.
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lksteve is offline
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07-29-2006, 20:15
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#54
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,823
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lksteve
it is not my point to create argument, but at some point after being mustered, they return to civilian life...then what...?
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They are The People. They have a parade, and then return to their civilian lives.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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07-29-2006, 20:19
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#55
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Castle Rock, CO
Posts: 2,531
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Reaper
They are The People. They have a parade, and then return to their civilian lives.
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agreed...and they retain their training and their knowledge of tactics, etc., until called upon again, at which time re-training occurs...?
__________________
""A man must know his destiny. if he does not recognize it, then he is lost. By this I mean, once, twice, or at the very most, three times, fate will reach out and tap a man on the shoulder. if he has the imagination, he will turn around and fate will point out to him what fork in the road he should take, if he has the guts, he will take it.""- GEN George S. Patton
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lksteve is offline
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07-29-2006, 20:49
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#56
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,823
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lksteve
agreed...and they retain their training and their knowledge of tactics, etc., until called upon again, at which time re-training occurs...?
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I believe that was the Founder's intent.
Worked well for the first half of our history.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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07-30-2006, 21:06
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#57
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,691
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lksteve
understood...how do you define "militia" with regards to the Second Amendment...?
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Like Ken said... it is the people.
What type of training do I think they should recieve?
Enough to run their guns, as well as be able to defend themselves, and their familes from a hostile attack.
__________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." - John Steinbeck, "The Law"
Last edited by Smokin Joe; 07-30-2006 at 21:13.
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Smokin Joe is offline
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07-31-2006, 01:22
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#58
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bad Tölz, Germany + San Antonio, TX.
Posts: 307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Smokin Joe
Work U.C. sometime and your opinion will change. You wake up paranoid thinking "is today the day they catch me?" maintaining "plausible deniability" is great in COURT, bad guys don't play by those rules. If BG's think they have a NARC on there hands one of two things happens: 1. you lose the case because the bad guys won't do business with you or 2. Your dead onsight.
So how strong is your "plausible deniability" now? Would you be willing to bet your life on it?
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Joe. You might be right in some cases. A plastic knive would probably give you away and "plausible deniability" wouldn´t work there.
I was talking about carrying illegal items (as in firearms) in general. If you work U.C. and carry the issued H&K pistol you are dead in a heartbeat. Carry a pistol that is not issued with a laser sight (illegal here) on and you are one of "them". Have a AK-47 in your trunk and you are one of "them" too. At least that´s how it works over here.
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- si vis pacem, para bellum -
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mike-munich is offline
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07-31-2006, 14:13
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#59
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,691
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mike-munich
Joe. You might be right in some cases. A plastic knive would probably give you away and "plausible deniability" wouldn´t work there.
I was talking about carrying illegal items (as in firearms) in general. If you work U.C. and carry the issued H&K pistol you are dead in a heartbeat. Carry a pistol that is not issued with a laser sight (illegal here) on and you are one of "them". Have a AK-47 in your trunk and you are one of "them" too. At least that´s how it works over here.
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Good to know I have never worked OCONUS so I will defer to your knowledge.
__________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." - John Steinbeck, "The Law"
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Smokin Joe is offline
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07-31-2006, 23:19
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#60
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bad Tölz, Germany + San Antonio, TX.
Posts: 307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Smokin Joe
Good to know I have never worked OCONUS so I will defer to your knowledge.
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I´ve spent quite some time with different Depts. stateside. Some things are the same, some are not. We have alot of organized crime from eastern Europe, Russia, Romania, Bulgaria....
I glady give you a tour of the Munich PD if you should make it to Munich, Germany, one day !
Stay safe !
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- si vis pacem, para bellum -
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