Another stick - Page 3

**Roguish Lawyer** · 03-08-2004, 20:04

I must say that I expected more sailor jokes in this thread. I am disappointed. LOL

**Airbornelawyer** · 03-08-2004, 20:06

Quote:

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
The funny thing is, it seems that the gay's don't wantit to be genetic becuase then somebody will want to "fix" it through genetic research. I can see that happening.

Actually, homosexuals go both ways on this issue (no pun intended). Some favor the genetic argument and use it against individuals and groups trying to convert gays ("Sparky...sit!...roll over!... Don't be gay, Spark! Don't be gay!")*. Others oppose the genetic argument for the very reason you cite. They fear someone will come up up with a gene therapy to "cure" homosexuality.

I personally don't have much of an opinion either way. Perhaps people are more genetically predisposed, but I think environment and improper socialization (overbearing mothers and all the otehr stereotypes) probably play a greater role. My intuition for this is that even gay couples tend to fall into "straight" gender roles (Ren's the pitcher and Stimpy's the catcher).

Regarding the original topic, "don't ask, don't tell", it strikes me as a classic example of the law of unintended consequences - discharges for homosexuality increased considerably after the policy came into effect. For over two centuries, once you got past the entrance questionnaire and unless you were applying for a security clearance, there was already an informal policy of "don't ask, don't tell" in the armed forces. As long as you did your job and stayed in the closet, no one cared. But the Clinton Administration came along and made it a policy because they didn't trust the SP4 mafia or Army tradition (I doubt more than 1 in 10,000 Clintonites even know what a SP4 mafia is).

The reaction of soldiers? You don't trust us enough to manage an informal policy, watch how rigorously we enforce the formal policy! In so many cases, you didn't have to ask, and quite a few soldiers couldn't manage the "don't tell" part. So out the door they went.

BTW, I was in airborne school (D/1-507, the Rock) when the policy came out. First joke to make the rounds: "What's the number one pick-up line for a gay paratrooper?"
.
.
.
"May I pack your chute?"

* "Don't be gay, Spark!": http://new.wavlist.com/tv/038/104_dontbgay.wav

Trivia question: what actor who has played SF officers in two films was the voice of Stan's gay dog Sparky?

03-08-2004, 20:06

I have always thought that the environment which kids are raised has as much or all to do with their sexual orientation. Some people are born with certain personalities and how they are raised and thier childhood environment has a lot to do with how they turn out. I do think homosexuality is a choice, but i do think the person's experience makes it easier to make that choice. Do I personally think there is any instance that makes homosexuality ok...no. But that is just my opinion. There is evidence on both sides of the issue, but i would say it is probably impossible to find research that hasn't been biased at some point either by funding or a personal agenda. Also the only evidence I have to support my opinion is from my child psych class I took at school, which by the way didn't cover sexual behavior because it was with kids. And from the gay guys I have met in my life, a majority of them came from a female household with no dominate male role model. I think that is more than a coincidence.

SO

**Airbornelawyer** · 03-08-2004, 20:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
I must say that I expected more sailor jokes in this thread. I am disappointed. LOL

This is the Army, not the Navy.

New techniques added to bayonet/pugil stick training in Mr. Clinton's Army:
(1) Crotch stroke to the butt.
(2) Head stroke to the crotch.

myclearcreek · 03-08-2004, 20:12

Quote:

Originally posted by SilentObserver
And from the gay guys I have met in my life, a majority of them came from a female household with no dominate male role model.

The ones I knew mostly came from traditional families, but had experienced homosexual abuse in their childhood. The young man who spoke at our self-defense class last week was raped on several occasions by three different males and is now in a homosexual relationship.

ktek01 · 03-08-2004, 20:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Airbornelawyer

Trivia question: what actor who has played SF officers in two films was the voice of Stan's gay dog Sparky?

George Clooney. That episode was a riot. I also heard the same thing about discharges going up, but I thought it had more to do with dumbasses misinterpreting the policy as a pass to come "Out of the closet". Thought the don't ask part made it ok, forgot all about the don't tell part, or something like that.

**The Reaper** · 03-08-2004, 20:43

Quote:

Originally posted by ktek01
I also heard the same thing about discharges going up, but I thought it had more to do with dumbasses misinterpreting the policy as a pass to come "Out of the closet". Thought the don't ask part made it ok, forgot all about the don't tell part, or something like that.

Actually, looks more like kids got the word that it was an easy way to get out very early without a hassle, and with lots of free legal support.

A few Basic training installations had the majority of the discharges.

TR

**Airbornelawyer** · 03-08-2004, 20:50

Quote:

Originally posted by The Reaper
Actually, looks more like kids got the word that it was an easy way to get out very early without a hassle, and with lots of free legal support.

A few Basic training installations had the majority of the discharges.

TR

Pre-DA/DT, when I was in Basic, we had a guy in my company kicked out for coming out. Our 1SG didn't actually believe him, but figured, either he was gay and couldn't stay in, or he was a liar and a quitter, so he didn't want him in. As an aside, the 1SG was a tough old guy who wore a 187th RCT combat patch for Korea and had 40 years in, active and Reserve (our drills were from the USAR's 78th Division, AKA the "Jersey Lightning" AKA the "Squashed Tomato").

lrd · 03-08-2004, 20:53

Quote:

Originally posted by myclearcreek
The ones I knew mostly came from traditional families, but had experienced homosexual abuse in their childhood. The young man who spoke at our self-defense class last week was raped on several occasions by three different males and is now in a homosexual relationship.

I've met men that have come from this background, while others come from the background that NDD discussed. It doesn't really address female homosexuals, though.

I think that the flaunting of any extreme behavior in a highly disciplined lifestyle like the military will cause problems.

**Airbornelawyer** · 03-08-2004, 21:05

This is a 1998 DOD Study, with analysis and data on discharges from 1980-1997: Report to the Secretary of Defense: Review of the Effectiveness of the Application and Enforcement of the Department's Policy on Homosexual Conduct in the Military. It shows that discharges declined in the late 1980s and early 1990s but accelerated when the DADT policy came into effect.

SInce that study, annual discharges generally rose for several years and then declined:

1998: 1,149
1999: 1,034
2000: 1,212
2001: 1,273
2002: 976

The 2003 numbers will probably be released sometime this month.

**Airbornelawyer** · 03-08-2004, 21:08

One of the stats in there supports TR's point. In 1997, 58% of dischargees had less than 1 year TIS and 82% had less than 4 years TIS.

37F5V · 03-08-2004, 21:09

Three things warrant an official investigation (check me on this Reaper):

1. Statement (i.e. I am a peter puffer)

2. Act (unless you walk in on this one.. Good Luck....)

3. Marriage (Becoming more common in the PDRK)

keep in mind this only warrants the Command to check it out and investigate.... Little pussies trying to get out of their obligation to God and Country DO NOT have a free ticket out.

I really hate the "Don't ask Don't tell policy".

ktek01 · 03-08-2004, 21:13

Quote:

Originally posted by The Reaper
Actually, looks more like kids got the word that it was an easy way to get out very early without a hassle, and with lots of free legal support.

A few Basic training installations had the majority of the discharges.

TR

Ahh, very good point. I dont get it though, would you rather go home and tell your friends you couldnt hang and quit, or that the Army kicked you out for being gay?

LOL, I bet that is how a poser is born.

**The Reaper** · 03-08-2004, 21:54

Quote:

Originally posted by PSYRGR
Three things warrant an official investigation (check me on this Reaper):

1. Statement (i.e. I am a peter puffer)

2. Act (unless you walk in on this one.. Good Luck....)

3. Marriage (Becoming more common in the PDRK)

keep in mind this only warrants the Command to check it out and investigate.... Little pussies trying to get out of their obligation to God and Country DO NOT have a free ticket out.

I really hate the "Don't ask Don't tell policy".

IIRC, no investigation is required, particularly for a soldier in his initial entry training. Investigate what? He just admitted that he was. Remember, "Don't ask, don't tell, don't pursue."

PVT Tentpeg tells his drill sergeant that he has discovered that those other guys in the shower excite him, and he feels that he cannot refrain from his newly discovered homosexuality.

He is pulled from training and processed for a Chapter Discharge, no investigation or proof required.

Note the number of discharges that came from Randolph AFB. Coming out was quite the rage there for a while.

ktek, since no one at home knows why he is back, little Johnny can claim injury, non-adaptability, or whatever lie he wants to make up next.

There are people leaving because of their sexual orientation, but probably less than half of those discharged really are homos.

TR

Pandora · 03-08-2004, 22:51

This topic always causes me pause for a visceral gut check:

As a parent, if my child one day shared with me that they were gay, how would I react?

Extrapolating that specifically in light of this thread...

- would I lean to a belief that it was genetic to avoid deep examination of the minutiae of the home environment?

- knowing the off-spring intimately- strengths and weaknesses - and knowing the kid to be raised to be patriotic, loyal, strong - how would I feel about the kid going into the military?

- Would I dissuade the kid based on the policy, or encourage him/her to serve proudly?

This one makes my brain hurt every time I think about it.