M-14/M1A - Page 3

Gene Econ · 10-09-2005, 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by longrange1947

1. Misfeeds, failure to extract, failure to fire, shots hitting next target over, pins failing in the trigger, extrqactor coming loose during firing, operating rod jamming in the figure 8 rod guide due to misalignement, and those are only some the of the fun things, My 2 cents, Gene throw in some pennys too.

Ten thousand rounds and the thing hasn't broken or run full auto due to a peened forward firing pin yet? Lord Have Mercy.

If it was bedded -- it ain't anymore. Rick is probably correct in stating that this rifle has been shot so much that the torque from the receiver has mashed the wood -- thus creating the 'canted upper receiver' effect. I haven't seen this happen though.

Short cycling on a 14 can be due to a number of things. Rack grade 14s break the roll pin securing the oprod guide to the barrel -- thus jamming the oprod to degrees. Failure to clean out the gas piston and plug is another cause. Failure to ensure the gas plug locking nut is tightened to the barrel then unturned until the gas plug can be screwed in. Loose gas plug is another cause. At times guys will inadvertently turn the gas cut off to close and thus no gas gets into the gas piston. I have seen 14s lose the gas cut off locking pin and lose the gas cut off itself -- causing short cycles or no cycles. Hmmm, let me think here. Bent oprod and weak oprod spring are two more, particularly after ten thousand rounds of 'any ammo'. Oh yes, loose gas tube assembly is another one.

Ten thousand rounds? Barrel is gone. Indicators of a shot out barrel? Poor accuracy. This isn't rocket science here. I bet you are getting good velocity though as you are probably missing about four inches of rifling. Soon you will have a paradox barrel.

My advice to Spartan is to have the entire rifle totally rebuilt. I mean every single thing and probably a new bolt as well.

Gene

longrange1947 · 10-09-2005, 21:22

Sorry Gene, I was kidding about the 155gr. It being a light Palma round and not suitable for the gas gun. As you stated, the required MV would tear up a 14 and the barrel twist is not conducive to stabilized bullets. I believe they be a mite over stabilized with the 10 twist.

I always shot the M852 for cross the course shooting when they dropped the M118NM. The 168 gr was originally made for the 300 meter international course of fire but did well at cross course as well.

We chronoed LR out of all of our M24s for the Palm and Pocket PC Balistic programs. All of our guns chronoed around 2575 to 2590. The folks at quality control say they test chrono at 1560 at 11 (or was it 15) meters from the muzzle. Our chrono was at normal distance. I have sitting on my book case two boxes of M72 30.06 National Match, One box of XM118, Two boxes of M118 Match, two boxes of M118 Special Ball, two boxes of M852, and finally two boxes of M118 Long Range. All the mil ammo that I have messed with over my "short" career of playing this silly game.

Yes folks, 30.06 for the Springfield and the M1C/D, though the D is more prevailent and I would have loved to got a hold of M1 Marine Sniper version. Better than the M1C, atleast that is what some old Jarhead said.

Dustin03 · 10-09-2005, 21:42

wow, i have learned a lot from this thread. the good news is i found one with a synthetic stock for $800. Gonna check more into it later. the bad news is...i met a woman so my money is being redistributed.......

longrange1947 · 10-10-2005, 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dustin03

wow, i have learned a lot from this thread. the good news is i found one with a synthetic stock for $800. Gonna check more into it later. the bad news is...i met a woman so my money is being redistributed.......

Look at the synthetic stock closly. It suffers form crushed fiberglass fibers similar tot he wooden stocks. While they are much more durable, they have accuracy problems as well. While I will not say they can't be bedded, they would be a pain to do so, IMHO.

When firing, be aware that the "over the shoulder hinge" on the butt plate is not for normal shooting and it was there only for full auto fire. Since I doubt that youwill be doing full auto, leave it in the closed position. The raised psoition misplaces it on the shoulder and is not needed under normal circumstances.

Hmmmmmm, redistributing money already? Is this the old bait and switch to get her on board or done with loving care?

Dustin03 · 10-10-2005, 12:40

well, a little of both, but I just met her. Infact me and my buddy where shooting yesterday when she called and asked if she could show up and try shooting handguns because she wanted to learn how.....i think i'm in love

**The Reaper** · 10-10-2005, 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dustin03

well, a little of both, but I just met her. Infact me and my buddy where shooting yesterday when she called and asked if she could show up and try shooting handguns because she wanted to learn how.....i think i'm in love

They all do that during the dating/engagement phase.

Unfortunately, you do not find out which ones who will keep doing that till they hook you, and then it is too late.

Look on the base bulletin boards to see firearms collections being sold off to finance divorces.

TR

longrange1947 · 10-10-2005, 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Look on the base bulletin boards to see firearms collections being sold off to finance divorces.

TR

Now there is a dose of cold salts.

**The Reaper** · 10-10-2005, 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by longrange1947

Now there is a dose of cold salts.

The lad used the four letter "L word".

Just trying to bring a bit of reality to the discussion.

He hands your average chick an M-1A with a 20 round mag and has her empty the thing, she is probably going to be bruised, and pissed.

If she isn't, shoots well, and appears to enjoy it, now that is either a keeper or a sufficiently excellent actress that you might consider keeping her around for a while.

Don't want to let his hormones cause him to fall for the first lass that lets him teach her to shoot. There are babes in the Fayetteville area who probably have more trigger time being "taught to shoot" than some of the kids in the 82nd.

Food for thought.

TR

longrange1947 · 10-10-2005, 14:22

Of course there is always the other four letter word that starts with an L.

OF course that is the one that gets lads in trouble.

Now me, I have kept the same lovbely young lady for 35 years (plus some change) now so what do I know.

10-13-2005, 15:53

Gene and Long range,

My department picked up two M-14's with the selector knob removed and pined. Both have plastic stocks instead of any wood. They are trying to turn them into Spotter's rifles. They are having immense troubles with every scope they mount to them. They complain that they will not consistently hold zero. I would show them this thread but my "friends" would probably end up saying: "So who are these guys again and what makes them so smart." They are using I 'believe" ARMS mounts and ATN's scopes (why I do not know). They are pushing 168's through them as that is what the state buys and we can go with them and get a major discount. I believe they are Winchesters. They were shooting a heavier grain that somebody mentioned above but not anymore. They are determined to put these rifles in service without spending any money on the 14 itself, just the scope, and mount. Should I let them in on some hints that I have learned here from professionals? I still have to keep reminding myself however, our "armorer" is only 32 years old and cannot handle being told he might be wrong or looking at the wrong item. He says it is not the 14's themselves also.

What would you guys do?

longrange1947 · 10-13-2005, 16:41

I would let them in on some of this stuff. They will be in serious trouble is they attempt to shoot those weapons near non hostiles and hit an innocent.

As far as the ARMs mounts, they have bought a mount with a history of not holding a zero. I would would look to other mounts such as the Smith Enterprise mount for the M14.

For a scope I would recommend a Leupold as a minimum, M3LR or if they insist on stupid, the M1. There are better scopes out there but they can get very expensive.

Have fun with the folk and check the receiver. If it is a TRW reciever then the receiver is probably milled bad for a barrel to reciever fit.

If they want to know why I know so much about that weapon, tell them that I used that weapon as a sniper for a "couple of years".

HOLLiS · 10-13-2005, 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by longrange1947

Now me, I have kept the same lovbely young lady for 35 years (plus some change) now so what do I know.

LR, excellent statement. I think that says more about the quality of person than any other words. (obviously there are exceptions). I am too very fortuante, 27 Years.

BTW, I would also like to say "thank you" to Gene and you, really enjoyed reading your posts.

Hollis

BTW, This is my son's first hunting season.

**Razor** · 10-13-2005, 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

BTW, This is my son's first hunting season.

Forgive the hijack, but this statement reminded me of something I was thinking about the other day. There's much ballyhoo over 'stopping power' and 'one shot kills' coming out of theater, and besides the Hollywierd influcence, I think another big reason is a significant lack of hunting experience in today's youth. Anyone that's hunted big game knows that even the 'one shot' larger hunting calibers (i.e. .308, 30-06, 7mm, etc) rarely put the animal down immediately. You can get a good sidelong shot that perforates both lungs, shreds the heart and fractures the shoulders, and you'll still follow a 50m bloodtrail to find the body before the animal bleeds out and stops. A buddy went antelope hunting last week with his .308, got a lucky frontal shot that hit low on her chest, split the sternum, lacerated the heart and just about field dressed her on the spot, and she still ran/jumped 25m before coming to a stop. Folks that don't hunt just don't understand the power of the will to live despite mortal wounds, I think.

Gene Econ · 10-13-2005, 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAB32

They are having immense troubles with every scope they mount to them. They complain that they will not consistently hold zero.
What would you guys do?

Mr. MAB:

Don't tell us -- a M-14 scope mount that won't hold zero? Imagine that! He, he, he.

I had the opportunity to work with some fellows who had six or eight Super Match M-14s made into what Rick and I know as the 'M-25'. These rifles were used in combat recently. I believe they used the ARMS mounts Rick mentioned and the rifles were made very well by an exceptional armorer I know. The mounts were lock tited into place and within about a hundred rounds of M-118 LR and M-80 ball, every single one had loosened up and lost zero. It was almost impossible to do a thing aside from welding the mount onto the receiver to have confidence that the mount wouldn't come loose. That is the nature of mounts and M-14s from my experience.

BTW -- I recall one of these rifles that would not hold worth a damn with either M-118 or M-852 but would shoot M-80 ball like it was the best match grade ammo you could get. No reason known to man why that particular 14 didn't shoot worth a damn with the 'match grade' stuff but shot M-80 to a minute constantly. That is the nature of the M-14 -- you won't know what you have until you shoot it.

There are reasons why the Army finally got rid of the M-14 as a service rifle and for snipers. In terms of the snipers, you just mentioned one reason. The other is trying to get them to shoot consistently well and the fact that they will shit the bed in terms of holding accuracy without any real reason.

Personally, I would have great confidence in a new M-14 as a service rifle. I wouldn't have that confidence with one in a sniper configuration unless it was significantly altered from its original design and that would probably bring a host of new problems to its design that I wouldn't want to face.

It was fun shooting when it still reigned as the best service rifle for competitive shooting but it disappeared from the firing line as fast as it disappeared from general issue to the Army. And for the same reasons.

Unfortunately, I just don't know of any 'out of the box' gas operated 7.62 that will shoot to the degree of accuracy demanded by precision shooters. All of them seem to need a 'guru' who has spent many years with that particular design in order to make them into something dependable.

My advice -- don't use a M-14 for the job you are describing. It does put more kinetic energy into something but you have to hit that something first.

Gene

one-zero · 10-14-2005, 10:41

I concur w/gene.
I've always liked the M21(later the M25) but it came down to nostalgic reasoning in the end as that's the weapon I 1st learned on in Army Sniper school...later, after attending SOTIC and taking things up a notch with real precision shooting I had to stand by bolt guns.
Though many opinions are voiced over SR-25s, that ended up being my working gun on a sniper tm. Just had to find a good gun - it was a love/hate thing for many guys. But for a gas/sniper weapon she couldn't be beat out to 700m (168gr) and made engaging additional tgts before they could hide an easier chore. Used the Leupold scope/rings on the rail mount just like my M24. The best thing I can say is that it was consistent and versatile.