Infantry in Action

[aricbcool]

Originally Posted by Bill Harsey

Kyo, I agree, providing the buddy doesn't drill both of 'em at the same time.

Remembering Raiders of the Lost Ark and the creepy Nazi dude: "Shoot them. Shoot them both..."

As far as all the grappling and ground fighting goes, I would think it'd be pretty hard to accomplish some of the moves from that video in full kit (just from a flexibility stand-point).

This was brought up on another thread, but I think the gun barrel would make an excellent jabbing weapon in a full kit fight. Possibly more effective than the butt of the gun (being plastic and all.) Bayonet, of course, would be better. Otherwise, anything that can hurt your opponent would be worth using.

I think it ultimately comes down to who comes up with the brutal answer first and whether they're willing to use it.

Most people have a natural aversion to up close and personal killing. Breaking bones, gouging sensitive places and otherwise permanently f-ing your opponent up doesn't necessarily come naturally. Whether or not you identify the opening and then have the stomach to follow it up could make all the difference.

Or you could wait until someone shows up with a gun.

--Aric

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

Originally Posted by aricbcool

Remembering Raiders of the Lost Ark and the creepy Nazi dude: "Shoot them. Shoot them both..."

As far as all the grappling and ground fighting goes, I would think it'd be pretty hard to accomplish some of the moves from that video in full kit (just from a flexibility stand-point).

This was brought up on another thread, but I think the gun barrel would make an excellent jabbing weapon in a full kit fight. Possibly more effective than the butt of the gun (being plastic and all.) Bayonet, of course, would be better. Otherwise, anything that can hurt your opponent would be worth using.

I think it ultimately comes down to who comes up with the brutal answer first and whether they're willing to use it.

Most people have a natural aversion to up close and personal killing. Breaking bones, gouging sensitive places and otherwise permanently f-ing your opponent up doesn't necessarily come naturally. Whether or not you identify the opening and then have the stomach to follow it up could make all the difference.

Or you could wait until someone shows up with a gun.

--Aric

I can sure vouch for the Korean war era entrenching tool! It make both a great blunt instrument and isn't to bad for splitting heads down to the nose area, if deployed with the stress brought on by close combat and a number of chinese trying to kill ya.

[Basenshukai]

Originally Posted by Kyobanim

Excellent point.

So lets take this in a different direction. You're exhausted. Adrenaline is just about gone. You have expended your ammo, your buddy is out also, it's down to hand to hand.

What do you have on your kit that you can use as a weapon? How do you use it?

When initially exposed to Mr. Ron Donvito's concepts I was satisfied that he, in collaboration with others, had done sufficient research on the whole matter of killing up close. The concepts are sound. The teaching method might not suit everyone, but 1) they are to the point and 2) are fairly simple.

I have personally discussed these concepts with Ken Good and Tony Blauer (telephonically) and all of their methods converge at numerous points since the goal is the same.

As for wearing full kit, I can tell you that what is taught when you are merely wearing BDUs, and, perhaps, a light "green ops" LBE will not create the same results. For one thing, wearing body armor changes your center of balance. Your points of vulnerability are also different. Weapon retention - your secondary weapon, for instance - becomes much more critical at this point.

I fondly remember being number-one man on a four-man stack and entering a room only to have my M4 barrel immediately deflected and found myself engaged in the most exhausting two minutes of my life. I had multiple points from which the "bad guy" could handle me and disrupt my center of balance: My MBTIR radio, my alternate light source, my magazine pouches, my straps, my chin strap, and my assault goggles. Within seconds of the encounter, the rest of the stack was already in the room and were controlling two others. Because my center of balance had been disrupted and I did not base low enough to counter it, I found myself on the ground. Ended up on top of the opponent using the weight of my kit and my body to pin him on the ground. Finally, I used a reverse arm lock, my knee firmly planted on the back of his neck to keep him from squirming and another assaulter applying an ankle lock while I "zip-tied" him. It only took two, maybe three minutes but it felt like I was sprinting. And this was just training.

This concept is not new, it is in fact hundreds of years old. Yoroi Kumiuchi (armor grappling) was taught as part of the regular jujutsu (or, jutaijutsu, taijutsu, yawara) curriculum for the same reason. When wearing kit, your body movement has to change and your techniques have to adapt. Back then; I'm sure, that the winner of the fight was usually the one whose buddy showed up first with a tanto.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I fondly remember being number-one man on a four-man stack and entering a room only to have my M4 barrel immediately deflected and found myself engaged in the most exhausting two minutes of my life.

Next time, shoot him in the face before he grabs your rifle, Sir. If you can't, then immediately after. He'll let go, I promise.

Smokin Joe, I am with you. Our guys and gals have been learning nothing more than "ground fighting" techniques for over 2 years now. Nothing else. All fights don't neccesarily end up on the ground from my experience. Also, the admin is afraid that too many people will end up missing work on Worker's Comp claims. So we are shown a very anemic/watered down version of some SWAT guys visions. When shown techniques from others like McCann, Styers, Gracie, and others that have been mentioned, they immediately say: "We are not killers, we protect lives, that stuff is way too violent." I carry a Glock, so should I keep it unloaded? Everybody who desires to get further training from different sources is denied.

Now we are the second in Ohio (supposedly?) to put dogs in our Jail on "patrol" throught the facility. Guess how many inmates have gotten bit? I'll give everybody a hint: Deputies 1, Inmates 0.

Bottom line,
When you work for a politician, PC can get you hurt or killed.

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by MAB32

Bottom line,
When you work for a politician, PC can get you hurt or killed.

AMEN!!!

[Bill Harsey]

Originally Posted by MAB32

Smokin Joe, I am with you. Our guys and gals have been learning nothing more than "ground fighting" techniques for over 2 years now. Nothing else. All fights don't neccesarily end up on the ground from my experience. Also, the admin is afraid that too many people will end up missing work on Worker's Comp claims. So we are shown a very anemic/watered down version of some SWAT guys visions. When shown techniques from others like McCann, Styers, Gracie, and others that have been mentioned, they immediately say: "We are not killers, we protect lives, that stuff is way too violent." I carry a Glock, so should I keep it unloaded? Everybody who desires to get further training from different sources is denied.

Now we are the second in Ohio (supposedly?) to put dogs in our Jail on "patrol" throught the facility. Guess how many inmates have gotten bit? I'll give everybody a hint: Deputies 1, Inmates 0.

Bottom line,
When you work for a politician, PC can get you hurt or killed.

MAB32,
You bring up a good point about your management claiming your not killers so therefore you shouldn't practise hard martial arts.

Here is my short study in stating the obvious:
In order to save a life you may have to have the skills to end a threat. Your not doing the public any good on the ground dying as the bad guy(s) turn to the next victim in line.
Train the hard martial arts, you can always choose to not use 'em if you don't need 'em just like with your handgun.

Mr. Harsey, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT in your statement and I am sure Smokin Joe will agree also! I have gone out and sought different training and when I couldn't find or get any, I sent away for the tapes and/or books and manuals. For example, I have the book on knife fighting by Michael Echanis that I bought many moons ago when it first came out. I also do the "what ifs" allot and constantly run scenarios through my head in order to stay sharp. This I beleive keeps me sharp and lessons my chances of getting it in an ambush. Actually, for me it is quite fun and keeps me on my toes.

Like I tell my fellow Deputies who come to me and ask for advice on what to do in various situations whereby "lethal force" may/might be used I tell them: "Bottom line is this, "It is better to be tried by twelve then buried buried by six." I also tell them that on the other hand they need to remember this one too: "Just because you can doesn't mean you always should." This is refering to the fact that just beacuse you can legally get away with using lethal force on someone doesn' mean you absolutely have to. If there is another way to get the job done and your life or that of someone elses isn't in immediate danger of death, then take some time and THINK before you are asked to account for every round thrown downrange.

I hope everybody can benefit from the above mentioned words of wisdom given to me by my longtime mentor in law enforcement.

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by MAB32

Mr. Harsey, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT in your statement and I am sure Smokin Joe will agree also! I have gone out and sought different training and when I couldn't find or get any, I sent away for the tapes and/or books and manuals. For example, I have the book on knife fighting by Michael Echanis that I bought many moons ago when it first came out. I also do the "what ifs" allot and constantly run scenarios through my head in order to stay sharp. This I beleive keeps me sharp and lessons my chances of getting it in an ambush. Actually, for me it is quite fun and keeps me on my toes.

Like I tell my fellow Deputies who come to me and ask for advice on what to do in various situations whereby "lethal force" may/might be used I tell them: "Bottom line is this, "It is better to be tried by twelve then buried buried by six." I also tell them that on the other hand they need to remember this one too: "Just because you can doesn't mean you always should." This is refering to the fact that just beacuse you can legally get away with using lethal force on someone doesn' mean you absolutely have to. If there is another way to get the job done and your life or that of someone elses isn't in immediate danger of death, then take some time and THINK before you are asked to account for every round thrown downrange.

I hope everybody can benefit from the above mentioned words of wisdom given to me by my longtime mentor in law enforcement.

You are correct.

Lucky for me one of our Detectives is a 6th Dan in Tae Kwon Do and Combat Hapkido.

I also have a long history in old school Jujitsu. But by no means do I think I know it all or even most of it....there is always someone who knows more than I out there...and I'm always looking for a better, simpler, and more effective system or style.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by Kyobanim

Getting hurt using unarmed combat techniques is part of the learning process. You can't properly apply a joint lock, bar or other dissabling technique without having it done to you and then doing it to a partner in practice. Going through the motions doesn't cut it. You need to learn what amount of force it takes to properly perform the technique, and what is needed for control of the opponent.
You need to hit and be hit, not killing blows but solid contact none the less, just to know what to expect. That's called conditioning.
......
Square off with a partner, striking the arms and shoulders with whatever strike, i.e., ridgehand, bear claw, yoke or tiger strike, switching from left to right. It develops the 'feel' of the force needed to appropriately apply the technique and it conditions the recipient's arms and shoulders. This can also be done using blocking motions thereby conditioning forearms.
Cinci, It's still advantagious to use the 'killing blows' on a live partner. It develops accuracy, since you have a partner that can say 'that hurt' and it teaches control.

Kyobanim, in your full contact training (including groin), do you train students to use full speed 'n everything but to open the fist just before contact so that the hit is a nasty-pain-inducing slap instead of fatal-bone-crushing blow?

Just comparing technique. I learnt back at school that pain is very useful to condition reflexes on human being just like in various animal training: after getting my temple "slapped" so many times that my eye started twitching, I finally learnt to protect my head.

[Kyobanim]

Originally Posted by frostfire

Kyobanim, in your full contact training (including groin), do you train students to use full speed 'n everything but to open the fist just before contact so that the hit is a nasty-pain-inducing slap instead of fatal-bone-crushing blow?

Just comparing technique. I learnt back at school that pain is very useful to condition reflexes on human being just like in various animal training: after getting my temple "slapped" so many times that my eye started twitching, I finally learnt to protect my head.

Keep in mind that I am trying to make a living at this. Causing pain in a student before they're ready is a good way to run them off. First you have to show them that they can overcome the pain, then move on to the rest. That being said. . .

No groin contact. Full speed is practiced in the advanced stage, 7 belts into the system. At that point it's up to the student as to whether they want to wear pads or go at it bare. No contact to the head period. There's not enough insurance in the world for me to teach that. No groin contact. Any kick, strike or punch is allowed to the front and side torso, arms, shoulders, inside and outside thigh. Knees are off limits. I do encourage sparring gear at this level but it's not required. It's also taught as point sparring.

Only black belts that have proven that they have the temprament and control, in my opinion (and that's the only one that counts), are taught disabling attacks. And maybe a few of the color belts if they show the same.

Teaching someone how to deliver a ridgehand to the head that will crush the skull or windpipe can be costly. If I send someone out into the world and they hurt, maim or kill someone I will have to live with it as well as themselves. Knowing the technique is only half the equation. You have to know when to use it also.

I don't make contact with my hand when I'm training people to block. I use the kicking paddles. They only sting a little and I can start using them at an early stage to develop the block instinct. By the time they get to the full contact stage they pretty much know how to block and have conditioned their blocks accordingly.

I could go on all night talking about this, but . . .

Hope that answered the question.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by Kyobanim

Hope that answered the question.

That will do, thanks!
Before asking the question, I forgot to incorporate into consideration that we were training with whatever we got, and there were no such thing as insurance.