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Old 07-21-2004, 13:07   #31
NousDefionsDoc
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heeeheee - ghuinness said "ass"!
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Old 07-21-2004, 13:13   #32
Airbornelawyer
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Re: Re: Re: Well, maybe I won't calm down.

Quote:
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
That may be a defense, but I don't see a jury so finding.
Why's it gotta get to a jury? The culpable mental state is an element of the offense. The prosecution's case might not even survive a 12(b)(6) motion. On the 1924 violation, they have to prove he knew the notes were classified and on the 793(f), they have to prove gross negligence. The latter is of course easier, so a 12(b)(6) motion would likely not lead to dismissal on the 793(f), but one of the best bits of evidence to make the negligence gross is showing that he knew at least in some respects he was doing something wrong (or at least reckless). Get the 1924 case thrown out, and you don't even have that.

I agree there's a strong case, based solely on what we know now, but it is not a slam dunk, especially with all those rich Democrat lawyers.

If you want to get your head spinning, read the CIA Inspector General's report on the John Deutch inquiry. There, the CIA Principal Deputy General Counsel told the Office of Personnel Security Legal Advisor that she thought that since Deutch, as DCI, had the legal authority to declassify material under his control, he couldn't be prosecuted for a security violation. The OPS Legal Advisor's notes reflect his incredulity: "Talked to [the PDGC]. She already knew about the Deutch leak. Discussed the 793(f) issue. She concluded years ago that the DCI who has authority to declassify cannot realistically be punished under the statute. I expressed my disbelief in that analysis. Hypo - does that put the DCI beyond espionage statutes? No she says that would be a natl. security call .... Returned briefly to information in play. Discussed how there may have been [non-CIA controlled compartmented program material] on the computer. Doesn't this push 793(f) back into play?"
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Old 07-21-2004, 13:16   #33
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Airbornelawyer:

Good stuff, at least good to know, keep it coming.

Terry
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Old 07-21-2004, 13:25   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by CPTAUSRET
I figured everyone here has heard the story, but if not I would write it up for all to see.

Along with a pic, of course.

Terry
Hell yeah, I'd like to see it!
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Old 07-21-2004, 13:26   #35
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Well, maybe I won't calm down.

Quote:
Originally posted by Airbornelawyer
The prosecution's case might not even survive a 12(b)(6) motion.
Gotcha! The Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure have no Rule 12(b)(6).

http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/Rule12.htm

I know what you meant, but I believe this is the first time you have ever been wrong about anything factual on the board. Or at least the first time you have been CAUGHT!!! LOL

As for the claim that this wouldn't go to trial, I very strongly disagree. You easily can draw the inference of intent from other facts, like his employment experience.

Just messin with ya, Dave! LMAO
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Old 07-21-2004, 13:30   #36
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So what is it now. 12(b)(3)(B)?

Sounds like OCOKA vs. OAKOC. Change for change's sake. The bureaucrat's proof that he exists.
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Old 07-21-2004, 13:34   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kyobanim
Hell yeah, I'd like to see it!
Kyobanim:

OK, I will try to ascertain just which forum it should be in.

Terry
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Old 07-21-2004, 13:35   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Airbornelawyer
So what is it now. 12(b)(3)(B)?

Sounds like OCOKA vs. OAKOC. Change for change's sake. The bureaucrat's proof that he exists.
LOL, I don't know if they were renumbered. I'm a civil litigator with no criminal experience at all, remember? C'mon, had to get you with something, somehow!

As for the dismissal, I really think you overestimate the ease with which claims can be dismissed at the pleading stage. You just have to plead the claim. There is more than enough here to get past the pleadings -- no question in my mind, in fact. I also think there already should be enough evidence to get to trial, assuming the standard is like summary judgment and the news reports are accurate.
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Old 07-21-2004, 22:23   #39
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Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
heeeheee - ghuinness said "ass"!
* hope this works *
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Old 07-22-2004, 07:12   #40
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Angry Different set of rules

I may be late but this isn't a Berger or Clinton problem.. The government lives by a different set of rules and accountabilities than do we common citizens. I guess I first noticed this in Vietnam. Every OPORD, Warning Order, AAR etc. connected with SOG (that I saw) was classified "Top Secret". The penalty for disclosure was 10 and 10. I took this very seriously. Yet I found many of these things disclosed in the media.

Congress demanded and got daily "Classified" briefings. Since cell phones didn't exist then, the congressmen would break legs and each other rushing to phones in order to be the first to divulge what went on in the "classified" briefing.

That was the first I became aware of the double standard and it has been going on ever since. The "right to know" law is grossly abused and IMO should be rescinded.

IMO President Bush is the first POTUS to take Security Seriously, although leaks still occur.

The first thing that struck me about the POW abuse scandel was that the source of information was was reports classified "SECRET NOFORN'".

Now comes the rub. As an example, take the POW issue. Once the information was published it is out and can't be taken back. If any charges are prefered against the divulger, he will become a "victim of 'whistle blower' abuse".

It is wrong but a fact nevertheless. In the case of the government, the crooks have more power than the cops!! Sad but IMO true.
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Old 07-22-2004, 08:00   #41
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

Archives Staff Was Suspicious of Berger
Why Documents Were Missing Is Disputed
By John F. Harris and Susan Schmidt
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, July 22, 2004; Page A06


Last Oct. 2, former Clinton national security adviser Samuel R. "Sandy" Berger stayed huddled over papers at the National Archives until 8 p.m.

What he did not know as he labored through that long Thursday was that the same Archives employees who were solicitously retrieving documents for him were also watching their important visitor with a suspicious eye.

After Berger's previous visit, in September, Archives officials believed documents were missing. This time, they specially coded the papers to more easily tell whether some disappeared, said government officials and legal sources familiar with the case.

The notion of one of Washington's most respected foreign policy figures being subjected to treatment that had at least a faint odor of a sting operation is a strange one. But the peculiarities -- and conflicting versions of events and possible motives -- were just then beginning in a case that this week bucked Berger out of an esteemed position as a leader of the Democratic government-in-waiting that had assembled around presidential nominee John F. Kerry.

As his attorneys tell it, Berger had no idea in October that documents were missing from the Archives, or that archivists suspected him in the disappearance. It was not until two days later, on Saturday, Oct. 4, that he was contacted by Archives employees who said that they were concerned about missing files, from his September and October visits. This call -- in Berger's version of the chronology, which is disputed in essential respects by a government official with knowledge of the investigation -- was made with a tone of concern, but not accusation.

Berger, his attorney Lanny Breuer said, checked his office and realized for the first time that he had walked out -- unintentionally, he says -- with important papers relating to the Clinton administration's efforts to combat terrorism.

Berger alerted Archives employees that evening to what he had found. The classified documents were sensitive enough that employees arrived on a Sunday morning to pick them up.

Several days later, after he had retained Breuer as counsel, Berger volunteered that he had also taken 40 to 50 pages of notes during three visits to the Archives beginning in July, the lawyer said. Berger turned the notes over to the Archives. He has acknowledged through attorneys that he knowingly did not show these papers to Archives officials for review before leaving -- a violation of Archives rules, but not one that he perceived as a serious security lapse.

By then, however, Archives officials had served notice that there were other documents missing. Despite searching his home and office, Berger could not find them. By January, the FBI had been brought in, and Berger found himself in a criminal investigation -- one that he chose not to tell Kerry's campaign about until this week.

But three days after the disclosure of the Berger investigation, many of the basic facts of the controversy remain unknown or are contested, as well as more subjective questions about how seriously his lapse should be regarded or its effect on politics this year.

A government official with knowledge of the investigation said Archives employees took action promptly after noticing a missing document in September. This official said an Archives employee called former White House deputy counsel Bruce Lindsey, who is former president Bill Clinton's liaison to the National Archives. The Archives employee said documents were missing and would have to be returned.

Under this version of events -- which Breuer denied -- documents were returned the following day from Berger's office to the Archives. Not included in these papers, the government official said, were any drafts of the document at the center of this week's controversy.

The documents that Berger has acknowledged taking -- some of which remain missing -- are different drafts of a January 2000 "after-action review" of how the government responded to terrorism plots at the turn of the millennium. The document was written by White House anti-terrorism coordinator Richard A. Clarke, at Berger's direction when he was in government.

Lindsey, now in private legal practice in Little Rock, did not return telephone and e-mail messages.

The government source said the Archives employees were deferential toward Berger, given his prominence, but were worried when he returned to view more documents on Oct. 2. They devised a coding system and marked the documents they knew Berger was interested in canvassing, and watched him carefully. They knew he was interested in all the versions of the millennium review, some of which bore handwritten notes from Clinton-era officials who had reviewed them. At one point an Archives employee even handed Berger a coded draft and asked whether he was sure he had seen it.

At the end of the day, Archives employees determined that that draft and all four or five other versions of the millennium memo had disappeared from the files, this source said.

This source and another government official said that archivists gave Berger use of a special room for reviewing the documents. He was examining the documents to recommend to the Bush administration which papers should be released to the commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. Archives spokeswoman Susan Cooper said that employees closely monitor anyone cleared to review classified presidential materials.

The contradictions over essential facts, such as when Berger was first alerted to missing documents, have characterized the controversy this week.

Sources have told The Washington Post, and other news organizations, that Berger was witnessed stuffing papers into his clothing. Through attorneys and spokesmen, Berger has denied doing that.

Berger has known for months that he was in potential jeopardy. Breuer was hired in October, and in January former White House press secretary Joe Lockhart was enlisted to remain on standby if a public controversy blossomed. But Berger allies said he did not inform Kerry because he had resolved to work privately with Justice Department officials, and received assurances that these officials would treat the matter confidentially.

The controversy is likely to continue, even after Berger relinquished his role as informal Kerry adviser on Tuesday. House Government Reform Committee Chairman Thomas M. Davis III (R-Va.) said yesterday that he plans an investigation.

"These allegations are deeply troubling, and it's our constitutional responsibility to find out what happened and why," Davis said in a statement. "It boggles the mind to imagine how a former national security advisor walked off with this kind of material in his pants, or wherever on his body he carried it. At best, we're looking at tremendously irresponsible handling of highly classified information -- some of which, I understand, has not yet been located."

White House press secretary Scott McClellan said that "a few individuals" in the White House counsel's office knew about the investigation before news reports.

There was bitterness among Berger allies this week in the timing of the disclosure and the wealth of detail -- inaccurate detail, they say -- about the allegations.

"This is a terrible experience for him, and he's embarrassed by his mistakes," Lockhart said, "but I think he also feels a sense of injustice that after building a reputation as a tireless defender of his country that many Republicans would try to assassinate his character to pursue their own ends."
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Old 07-22-2004, 11:46   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer

"This is a terrible experience for him, and he's embarrassed by his mistakes," Lockhart said, "but I think he also feels a sense of injustice that after building a reputation as a tireless defender of his country that many Republicans would try to assassinate his character to pursue their own ends."
Amazing spin on making this partisan and political....but not surprising in the least.
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Old 07-22-2004, 11:52   #43
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Deva vu.

Maybe he could define what the work "is" means to him, or explain how the recipient of a sex act can "not" be having sex.

TR
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Old 07-23-2004, 09:07   #44
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Covering up?
U.S. officials tell us that the FBI is focusing on a single document in its investigation of former White House National Security Adviser Samuel R. Berger. Investigators are trying to determine why Mr. Berger improperly removed a highly classified after-action report by Richard A. Clarke, an aide to Mr. Berger, that was harshly critical of the Clinton administration's response to the so-called millennium terrorist plot to bomb Los Angeles International Airport and other targets in late 1999.
http://www.washtimes.com/national/inring.htm
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Old 07-23-2004, 09:59   #45
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The unanswered question is whether there were other copies of these draft versions. We know there were other copies of the final Millenium AAR, which was reportedly rather critical of the government's successes in 1999-2000 (the big catch was by a Border Patrol agent who never heard about any of the heightened security measures). If there were no other copies of the working drafts, maybe he was trying to get rid of earlier versions which painted a different picture, whether rosier or more negative. Or maybe he had doodled in the margins about nachos. Or maybe, while Richard Clarke was reviewing the findings, he was doodling all over his copy "Sandy Berger Clinton XXOO" with a heart in place of the dot on the "i" in Clinton. Or maybe he was a complete slob and inadvertently took all those drafts and lost them.

BTW, I'm preaching to the choir here, but why is there not more outrage over the fact that, giving Berger every benefit of the doubt, the Advisor to the President for National Security Affairs routinely took top secret documents out of SCIFs and lost them. This, of course, is on top of having a DCI who lost his security clearance because he took classified information home with him and put it on his home computer.

We had removable hard drives on our computers. Hard drives on which classified information were locked in the safe every day. Only unclassified hard drives could be used to access the Internet. And Intellink was run on separate computers with separate routers and separate everything so it could not be hacked into. And the DCI just copies classified information on a floppy, sticks it in his pocket, and puts it in the same computer he uses to buy socks on eBay?

Hanlon's Razor says "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." Apparently, that has become the primary legal strategy of members of the Clinton Administration.
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