Kimber's response to malfunctions

[El Cid]

First, TR that was a magnificent summary on page 1.

Second, let's all imagine for a second that the patents for Glocks, Sigs, HK's, etc. have expired many years ago. Now anybody with a machine shop can legally make and sell a G17, or a USP45, or a Sig 229, etc. They even get to call them by the same model name/number. I'd bet the quality and reliability would vary greatly from one manufacturer to another. Some would be bought and run great out of the box, others would require expensive "rescue" efforts. That is basically how I view the 1911 today.

Using that premise, to state that 1911s as a whole are unreliable just seems silly at best. Countless companies produce them and some are better than others. Unfortunately because of the market and prices, the crappy ones cost about the same as the quality 1911s. This makes it tough to sift through the various offerings and get a weapon you can count on. Now, for most people - especially those who are not "gun types" (like most LE and military folk), why try to figure out whose 1911s run and whose suck? All they need to do is buy a Glock, Sig, XD, HK, etc. and generally speaking the gun works as advertised. We all know that no gun is perfect (my G22 has had more problems than all the guns I have every owned/shot combined - but I am smart enough to realize it's not the norm).

I also agree with those who can see the fact that a loaded Glock is less safe than a loaded, C&L 1911 or other SA gun (Hi-Powers, USPs, CZs). I work for an agency that allows only SWAT/HRT folks the choice of a 1911. The rest of us cannot be trusted with such a weapon and must carry Glocks (not counting the grandfathered Sigs and Smiths). I laugh everytime that comes up because both guns have 5lb trigger presses and only the 1911 has a manual safety. I'd give a novice a loaded 1911 or Hi-Power before I'd give them a Glock. Of course agencies have more in mind than safety. They have to worry about cost of the weapon, MX costs, etc. And if they go the 1911 route, they have to wade through all the various manufacturers to find good ones for the reason I mentioned in the first paragraph.

This post is already longer than I wanted, so I'll STFU now.

[FearTheCats]

Originally Posted by APLP

Lot's of rationales to go around, fact is, right wrong or indifferent, most all departments think the liability is higher with the "1911 single action trigger", no sweat for me one way or the other.

Why do they "think" that?

Lots of assumptions in the above, maybe yes to some, maybe no to others, no sweat for me one way or the other.

Based on your experience, which ones do you think are good or wrong, and why?

I don't know too many folks who carry guns for a living who would make the claim that the specific duty handgun they carry guarantee’s them the ability to hit the target with the "first and every shot"...

Didn't mean to come across that way, but then I did say "I CAN" instead of what I should have said: "I AM MORE LIKELY TO than with a long DA pull." So please consider any guarantees of first and every shot accuracy revoked.

I would also be hesitant to compare my ability to put rounds on target with the small number of FBI or military special ops folks who do carry the 1911for a living. Unless you train and operate the way they do, you would most assuredly lose your challenge in court. ... At this point with respect to your above, I have to say you don't know what you are talking about.

I did not say I could shoot as well as FBI, spec ops, or anybody else. I'm not the most experienced or best trained 1911 shooter in the world. But what I do for a living is litigation (although I've asked to be put on full time at my department) and legal research, and even though you know the 1911 well, I don't see where you're qualified to comment on what will or will not work in court. I'll be glad to look at any legal authorities you know of that specify how or how much you must train with a 1911 or any other design.

You should not assume what folks know and don't know here on PS or any other forum where folks shoot bad guys for a living.

What did I assume everybody knew or did not know?

I apologize for my lack of tact and grasp of the English language from this former Marine to the professional soldiers forum, but you sir are simply a dumb ass.

You wouldn't be the first or last to arrive at that opinion after reading something I wrote. You might even have meant to say "assclown." All I meant to do was say why I personally choose to carry a 1911. Would you like me to carry something else? If so, what? If so, why?

Team Sergeant:

I did not mention any "tactical shooting" magazines, just one of their contributors, Mas Ayoob. I've never met him but I have read a lot of his books and articles, and he has some good points with some basis in experience. If I needed an expert witness, I'd sure consider him.

All I said about the HRT was that (1) they carry 1911s--and that is not hearsay. I couldn't immediately find anything on FBI's site that says what HRT carries, but according to Springfield Armory Inc., HRT and FBI regional SWAT teams bought at least some SAI 1911s; and (2) because that design helps them hit better, which is ... well, I don't have a direct quote from anybody at FBI that says so, but that's what I've always figured the reason was. If you know that the real reason was different, I will sure stand corrected.

Nobody else has to do what I do, and you're right Team Sar'nt, many better and more experienced personnel will disagree with what I do and why I do it. Then again, at least a few people who know what they're doing, including my department's command structure and firearms instructors, DO agree with me. All I'm saying is, I will carry a 1911 as long as I'm both allowed to and nothing clearly better is available. But if I'm not allowed to at some point, I can learn to win with whatever they give me.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by FearTheCats

Team Sergeant:

I did not mention any "tactical shooting" magazines, just one of their contributors, Mas Ayoob. I've never met him but I have read a lot of his books and articles, and he has some good points with some basis in experience. If I needed an expert witness, I'd sure consider him.

All I said about the HRT was that (1) they carry 1911s--and that is not hearsay. I couldn't immediately find anything on FBI's site that says what HRT carries, but according to Springfield Armory Inc., HRT and FBI regional SWAT teams bought at least some SAI 1911s; and (2) because that design helps them hit better, which is ... well, I don't have a direct quote from anybody at FBI that says so, but that's what I've always figured the reason was. If you know that the real reason was different, I will sure stand corrected.

Nobody else has to do what I do, and you're right Team Sar'nt, many better and more experienced personnel will disagree with what I do and why I do it. Then again, at least a few people who know what they're doing, including my department's command structure and firearms instructors, DO agree with me. All I'm saying is, I will carry a 1911 as long as I'm both allowed to and nothing clearly better is available. But if I'm not allowed to at some point, I can learn to win with whatever they give me.

You didn’t need to mention any "tactical shooting" magazines articles or "firearms experts" your writing reeks of them.

I'll ask again, do you or do you not know first hand if the FBI HRT uses 1911’s or did you just read that too? Cannot answer a simple question? You are a full time lawyer and a part time cop, you should be able to answer the question.

I need not hear about your departments command structure and DO. It’s you spouting crap on this board not them. There are millions of gun owners that think like you, all read the same gun articles and pay homage to the same self made firearms experts. Here’s a secret you may not know, I've destroyed some of these "expert" firearms witness testimony in court and the client he attempted to defend is currently resting in a state prison for 48 years.

Spare us your opinion concerning weapons until you get a few decades employing them. This is not a request.

Call me "Team Sar'nt" again and I’ll rid the board of you.

TS

[82ndtrooper]

All I said about the HRT was that (1) they carry 1911s--and that is not hearsay. I couldn't immediately find anything on FBI's site that says what HRT carries, but according to Springfield Armory Inc., HRT and FBI regional SWAT teams bought at least some SAI 1911s; and (2) because that design helps them hit better, which is ... well, I don't have a direct quote from anybody at FBI that says so, but that's what I've always figured the reason was. If you know that the real reason was different, I will sure stand corrected.

FEARTHECATS,

There's alot of inconsistency in the above paragraph. I suspect your admiration for the 1911 platform is based soley on the idea that a HSLD outfit like the FBI HRT carries them, or at the very least you've read that they do. I've never put much faith in any of the handgun mags, and Soldier of Fortune. Mas Ayoob has made a living writing for these mags, and I fear he is more about writing than real world tactics. At least in this day and age.

"because the original design helps them hit better" This sounds more like an 18 year old with his first handgun than a lawyer and officer of the peace. Not something I would expect from someone that is or has been trained beyond that of hitting paper targets at an indoor range. You've mentioned that you attended a tactical pistol and carbine course with Larry Vickers. I would hope that almost every LEO officer has seen more than the 2 weeks at the state academy under highly monitored target fire. I too spent a weekend with Larry Vickers in Fayettville, N.C. this past year. In fact, he complimented me on the use of the H&K USP platform, not the 1911. I learned a great deal, but after returning home one has to continue to employ that training or it's lost. Much like my golf swing. I'm not in the business of clearing a room or making a hard entry, but it was worth the vacation to Fayettville, to fire off the pistol with some instruction.

Personally I could care less what the FBI HRT carry. Their needs are different than mine. I dont presume to know all scenarios of any deadly threat encounters, but I do know that I am not given any advantage by using a pistol that the FBI HRT carry. I'd rather be 100% dead accurate with a crappy pistol than only 50% with a 1911. Hence the reason I carry what works for me, not what works for someone else. I own a Taurus 24/7 Pro .45 ACP that is hands down a better pistol than any of the 1911's that I own. Taurus isn't touting any of their pistols being carried by any HSLD outfit. My bet is that if the HSLD operators were handed the Taurus, they'd make it work for them, not insist on what the FBI HRT carry. My Taurus holds 12+1 and allows me to shoot straight, something I cannot say for any of my 1911's.

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by 82ndtrooper

All I said about the HRT was that (1) they carry 1911s--and that is not hearsay. I couldn't immediately find anything on FBI's site that says what HRT carries, but according to Springfield Armory Inc., HRT and FBI regional SWAT teams bought at least some SAI 1911s; and (2) because that design helps them hit better, which is ... well, I don't have a direct quote from anybody at FBI that says so, but that's what I've always figured the reason was. If you know that the real reason was different, I will sure stand corrected.

A friend of mine is a member of the FBI's SWAT teams (not HRT), and he carries a Glock 21, FWIW.

[El Cid]

Originally Posted by BrianH

A friend of mine is a member of the FBI's SWAT teams (not HRT), and he carries a Glock 21, FWIW.

SWAT/HRT agents are issued a SA 1911. They do not have to carry it however (might be required for call-outs - never asked about that). They can still carry their issued weapon (Sig or Glock), or an authorized personally owned weapon (G21 is on that short list). Most of the SWAT agents I work with do carry their 1911s all the time, but I have a few friends that choose G22s, G23s for day to day work and the 1911 for call-outs.

FWIW, one of our SWAT teams dumped their 1911s for G21s. But, they have had continual problems with the G21s.

[82ndtrooper]

Originally Posted by BrianH

A friend of mine is a member of the FBI's SWAT teams (not HRT), and he carries a Glock 21, FWIW.

Let's be clear. The quote that you have in your post is that of "FEARTHECATS" I dont know why it was not blocked and quoted properly.

I responded to the quote with the first sentence being "There are some inconsitency's"

Glock 21.................another crappy handgun IMHO But if it works for them, that's their bus.

[FearTheCats]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

You didn’t need to mention any "tactical shooting" magazines articles or "firearms experts" your writing reeks of them.

I'll ask again, do you or do you not know first hand if the FBI HRT uses 1911’s or did you just read that too? Cannot answer a simple question? You are a full time lawyer and a part time cop, you should be able to answer the question.

No, I have not personally seen HRT members carry 1911s.

I need not hear about your departments command structure and DO. It’s you spouting crap on this board not them. There are millions of gun owners that think like you, all read the same gun articles and pay homage to the same self made firearms experts. Here’s a secret you may not know, I've destroyed some of these "expert" firearms witness testimony in court and the client he attempted to defend is currently resting in a state prison for 48 years.

I did not know that.

Spare us your opinion concerning weapons until you get a few decades employing them. This is not a request.

Will comply.

Call me "Team Sar'nt" again and I’ll rid the board of you.

TS

I'm truly sorry! I meant absolutely no insult. That's how I hear others pronouncing "Sergeant" and that's how I address the sergeants I know. No one has ever said I should not do so. I stand corrected.

82dtrooper:

I have been forbidden to talk about weapons any more, so I won't respond to anything you said.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by 82ndtrooper

Let's be clear. The quote that you have in your post is that of "FEARTHECATS" I dont know why it was not blocked and quoted properly.

I responded to the quote with the first sentence being "There are some inconsitency's"

Glock 21.................another crappy handgun IMHO But if it works for them, that's their bus.

82ndtrooper,
This is our (Special Forces) board. The next time you address an SF candidate or otherwise you will be gone.
While we value your opinion we do not wish you to dispense authority on our behalf.
Think twice before you post.

TS

[82ndtrooper]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

82ndtrooper,
This is our (Special Forces) board. The next time you address an SF candidate or otherwise you will be gone.
While we value your opinion we do not wish you to dispense authority on our behalf.
Think twice before you post.

TS

Roger that !!