Shooting dogs......

[GackMan]

the couple MP5 SDs that are laying around are tasked specifically for dogs. the inner perimiter team is in charge of that. the assault team doesn't worry about dogs (well, not on paper anyway). If there are known dogs on target property, they are factored into planning either to get shot or just let out to run around.

although, I admit I've never seen a oving target simulator set up with a low to the ground doggie target.

On the plus side, dogs run right at you or directly away from you. they don't duck and weave and don't know how to use cover.

[Warrior-Mentor]

One would think what ever took down that hog would work on any dog.

Pig Slayers: What's your preferred weapon & ammo of choice?

[HOLLiS]

Maybe another thread on pigs? I use to hunt them (javalena) in Az, near Wikiup(SP?). But that was a long time ago.

[jatx]

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

Maybe another thread on pigs? I use to hunt them (javalena) in Az, near Wikiup(SP?). But that was a long time ago.

Javelina are lots of fun to hunt, but you'd better be on your toes! Down in South Texas, I have hunted them successfully with 00 buck, but sometimes their inertia still carries them a bit too close for comfort.

[BrendanH]

Hello Everyone,
My first post here, other than my introduction one.

Some really good information on dealing with dogs. As with everyone else here my team has had very poor results shooting dogs with handguns, all that have been hit with handguns rounds ended up having to be finished with a shotgun, we currently use #4 buckshot. We've only had one shot with a rifle, a 5.56, it was a pit bull and it stopped him with one shot. Most of our dog shootings have been done with a shotgun and they have been pretty effective. Although one pit bull was nearly cut in half and he was still coming.

We've used a couple other things to send the dogs away when the didn't need to be killed- a couple times when the dogs were outside we used flashbangs with good success, the dogs tunred and ran and they never came back. But that was outside and they had an escape route, don't know if that would be the same if it was inside. Recently one of the teams had a pit bull that was acting aggressive but not coming at the team. The Less Lethal officer hit him a couple times with a 40mm sponge round, he had lethal coverage there with him, and the dog ran and never bothered the team again.

We haven't shot any dogs with a Taser. We carry it as a less lethal option for humans but we think it would be pretty hard to hit a dog with both probes.

A couple times some of our guys have used OC on the dogs. While it has done a good job of getting rid of the dogs it also contaminated the rest of the team and none of them had their masks on. Needless to say the guys know not to do that anymore.

Just a few thigns we run into,
Brendan

[NousDefionsDoc]

When I was a kid, we didn't shoot the hogs. We caught them live and took them home to fatten them up. Used dogs and roped them off horseback. Kids' job was to get in there amongst 'em and tie them up. Hog tie, as it were. I never enjoyed it very much.

[jatx]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

When I was a kid, we didn't shoot the hogs. We caught them live and took them home to fatten them up. Used dogs and roped them off horseback. Kids' job was to get in there amongst 'em and tie them up. Hog tie, as it were. I never enjoyed it very much.

Now that will build some character...

[keith]

Originally Posted by BrendanH

A couple times some of our guys have used OC on the dogs. While it has done a good job of getting rid of the dogs it also contaminated the rest of the team and none of them had their masks on. Needless to say the guys know not to do that anymore.

Dogs really are amazing. I read a document when I was a LEO about how Police Work Dogs could perform usual activities in a house covered with OC dust (the handler had to wear a gas mask). There was little reaction other than the occasional tearing and red eyes.

Perhaps a direct spray has a little stronger effect, but apparently it's not the best method of deterring a dog.

Check out this link: http://www.nrps.com/canine/article3.asp

Studies and testing have shown that Police Dogs can overcome the spray to make apprehensions and locate suspects in that environment. Additionally, they have even proven to be successful in doing more sensitive nose work, such as narcotics and explosives detection in and after "OC" exposure.

I'd hate to get OC all over me and still get bit. Makes an already bad day so much worse.

[jbour13]

Originally Posted by hoepoe

Ok Brenneke has come a long way since i last used a shotgun, this is what i found n their site with regards to a suitable slug:

Tactical Home Defense 12 / 2¾”

Weight: 1 oz.
Barrel: all types
Range: up to 35 yards
Use: Home defense / law enforcement, deer sized game

* Original BRENNEKE Slug “Bronze” with newly developed unique patented B.E.T.-wad
* flat trajectory
* good accuracy
* allows quick, accurate follow up shots if needed
* good knock down power
* controlled penetration / low risk of dangerous exiting
* designed for urban use
* proven for law enforcement
* most comfotable for recoil sensitive shooters

Hoepoe

What about this one (see attachment)? I agree a slug is a good choice, if you have ample time to setup your shot. 00 Buck gives a little better hit probability and creates multiple wound channels. But increased distance creates a misplaced round or pellet with multiple projos (think of kids or other innocents).

I tested the 12 ga Hornady SST slugs at 5, 10 and 25 yards on 1 gallon water jugs. They explode violently and fragment the jug pretty well. Test gun was a Remington 1100 Competition Master.

How this correlates jugs to dogs, the round is designed for deer hunting. Deer hide is a little tougher (OK, alot tougher) than a dogs. The jug is about 10 times tougher than dog skin. The jug lacks elasticity, dog skin is really elastic (more so in bulldogs, pit bulls, and other bull terrier breeds) than others ie. greyhounds, chihuahuas (be afraid, be very afraid).

There is no perfect solution, multiple ones would work. Using ammo that is designed to frag like LeMas would be great to incapacitate and kill a dog. But remember that the ammo you use on the dog is likely to be used on the perp (I have no problem, lawyers may).

OK, so TS has given the deaf, blind dog an opportunity to play (the ACLU would be happy). Slip him a Ruffi-Coloda and monkey-stomp him. OK I have no answer for that except humanely send this dog to the big kennel in the sky. Admit it, he's deaf and blind, he's not a dog anymore. He's an area rug with a pulse, put him out of his misery.

Edit to add: This Hornady slug does a number on deer, I think it's a bit overboard, but in the un-gun-friendly state of Maryland it's about all a hunter can use. It really tenderizes the meat in the shoulder and renders a good portion of it unusable because it's too bruised or infused with copper jacketing. Cutting my mouth up eating venison jerky is not my idea of a fun time. I grew up in southern MO, we used noting bigger than the 300 Win Mag. I use a 7mm Rem Mag, I hate chasing them across creation and pulling them out of the briar patch.

[HOLLiS]

I think the advantage of a shot gun is that shot is being used. A slug is no different that a project from a side arm or rifle, Albiet larger.

When I was in a agency we used #5 shot, what was considered best all-a-round load (a compromise). Using shot allows for a greater area of coverage compare to a single shot projectile. Sort of like a gernade, close is close enough. At really close range the other advantage of the shot gun is the blast.

Personally, I think the greatest danger in shooting a dog is the way the "liberal" media would headline the event. "police shoot 10year old girl's puppy" (even though it is a 150# rotti)

[jbour13]

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

I think the advantage of a shot gun is that shot is being used. A slug is no different that a project from a side arm or rifle, Albiet larger.

When I was in a agency we used #5 shot, what was considered best all-a-round load (a compromise). Using shot allows for a greater area of coverage compare to a single shot projectile. Sort of like a gernade, close is close enough. At really close range the other advantage of the shot gun is the blast.

Personally, I think the greatest danger in shooting a dog is the way the "liberal" media would headline the event. "police shoot 10year old girl's puppy" (even though it is a 150# rotti)

#5 seems like a good compromise. Enough lead on target without much risk of busting sheetrock.

Question: How much splashback from stray shot would be expected?

I'm thinking hard surface and misplaced round would kickback some shot. Eye pro and most of the gear would absorb the impacts, but the face area may get peppered. Would probably cause the entry team member to slow up at a critical time. Food for thought, interested in seeing some LEO experiences.

Also welcome troop comments on using shotguns in the sandbox and if the shot deflects off of mudbrick alot.

V/R
SGT B

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by jbour13

Also welcome troop comments on using shotguns in the sandbox and if the shot deflects off of mudbrick alot.

V/R
SGT B

You can skip pellets off most pavement and masonry.

The really neat thing about it is that the deformed pellets tend to "hug" the surface you skipped them off of at 18" or less and make people remaining stationary or taking a second peek unhappy.

TR

[KBAR_O4]

While ranching in Montana, Ive had to shoot a number of dogs and coyotes. They get the cattle all stirred up and next thing you know, youve got 200 head making for the Idaho line.. I have to concur with the shotgun for close range. Dogs are difficult to kill. I usually used a rifle with a scope. If you dont connect with the cranial cavity with a rifle bullet, they just seem to keep on going.

[Basicload]

I'm with Gack on this. the MP-5SD is well suited for reducing dogs in support of the assault team.

NYSP ERU used this technique quite often with good results against known dog threats. Hollow point ammo in short bursts could effectively put the dog down without a lot of yelping and noise.

If noise is not a factor then I think the shotgun is a good choice and my only concern about its use is the time to rack another round if there are more than one dog or the first shot is a miss.

5.56mm M855 green tip in not a good choice when trying to silently eleminate a dog (even with a good supressor) because the majority of dogs have to be hit several times to put them out of their misery. They normally do not "go quiet into the night" and there is usually a lot of yelping and moaning from the animal until a CNS shot can be made.

Proper shot placement is of course the key when using this NATO spec FMJ ammo.

It is of interest to note that the majority of "dog compromises" in OIF are just the team's imagination. If you ever get into a hide and go static you will notice that the damn dogs in the distance bark anyway.

The thing that does concern me is when they are close enough to growl and snarl. This fear/agressive behavior sounds different than dogs just barking at shit in the dark. This could alert people in buildings around the animal if they are still awake. I have yet to see an element actually get attacked by a dog in OIF, but a dog that stays 10 feet away and barks and growls his ass off is a serious problem. Dogs barking 100 meters away as you pass by a house at night are not to be worried about IMHO.

Good discussion guys.

[Tubbs]

I was on a patrol with a buddy of mine in Iraq a few years ago when we were in and he was attacked by a dog. We were searching a residence in a farming town and he was providing external security. The dog bit through his jungle and almost chewed off his ankle. He tried to club the dog off of him and when that didn't work one of our ohter guys tried to shoot it. It took 5 shots.
After seeing that, if I had a choice I wouldn't stake my safety on a 5.56 round against a dog.