03-15-2005, 08:19
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#316
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: east coast
Posts: 607
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greenhat
Saudi Arabia is not in itself representative of Islam. Shall we suggest that Jim Jones was representative of Christianity?
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Thats my point, Saudi Arabia is considered the most PROGRESSIVE of all the Islamic states, yet no one questions the condemnation and if necessary, killing of non-believers - it is merely an excepted concept within the religion.
Jim Jones, Hale Bop, Waco or any of the other cults which utilized the cloak of Christianity make the news because they kill themselves or are led to a confrontation. Jone's people shot up the Sen and his staff because they were going to expose them, not because they refused to convert to his version of the religion.
The total numbers involved in cult like religious groups doesn't amount to even a drop in the bucket when compared to the numbers churned out in the madrassas and mosques every day, week, month, year, and or decade in the ongoing educational process of the great peaceful religion.
Pete put it perfectly
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The long answer can be wrapped around 99 trees from here to next Sunday and debated at every turn but still boils down to "Yes".
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The bottom line is - it really doesn't matter what we think - the fatwas have been issued, and to them - IT'S ON - forever - until the black flag flies over the entire world. So whether it AQ, Abu Sayyaf, or even the JI where you are, their numbers continue to multiply due to religious conviction first.
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casey is offline
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03-15-2005, 10:19
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#317
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: East Coast
Posts: 438
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by casey
The total numbers involved in cult like religious groups doesn't amount to even a drop in the bucket when compared to the numbers churned out in the madrassas and mosques every day, week, month, year, and or decade in the ongoing educational process of the great peaceful religion.
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What do those numbers look like, exactly?
SA is hardly the most progressive of Islamic countries. Bahrain, Turkey and the UAE are FAR more progressive (allowing women to drive, booze to be sold, foreigners to buy property, etc...)
__________________
They only the victory win
Who have fought the good fight and have vanquished the demon that tempts us within;
Who have held to their faith unseduced by the prize that the world holds on high;
Who have dared for a high cause to suffer, resist, fight—if need be, to die.
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Jimbo is offline
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03-15-2005, 15:51
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#318
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,952
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by casey
Thats my point, Saudi Arabia is considered the most PROGRESSIVE of all the Islamic states, yet no one questions the condemnation and if necessary, killing of non-believers - it is merely an excepted concept within the religion.
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I have no idea what you think "progressive" means, but Saudi Arabia is by no measure considered the "most PROGRESSIVE of all the Islamic states." In fact, the 9-11 terrorists were primarily motivated by their hatred for that state and its alliance with the United States. Even Wahhabis would not consider themselves "progressive." They are as reactionary as one can get, viewing Shi'ites and even most Sunni Muslims as apostates.
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Airbornelawyer is offline
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03-15-2005, 16:52
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#319
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Quiet Professional
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I used the word progressive in capitals to insinuate biting sarcasm.
On the one hand the Saudi's pay huge sums to public relations and media lobbies (some here in the US) to push forward the notion worldwide that the kingdom flourishes under modern technology and, is in their terms - "progressive". Yet because of the exact reasons AL stated they must leave defined concepts (however antiquated) of the religion in place.
My point (albiet to subtle) was to point out this hypocrisy and that even they, are scared of the militants amongst them.
Yes, I do know what progressive means, and yes, I believe we are at war with islam.
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casey is offline
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03-15-2005, 20:50
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#320
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Consigliere
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland (at last)
Posts: 8,841
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I love that this debate is still raging. 
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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03-15-2005, 20:56
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#321
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by casey
I used the word progressive in capitals to insinuate biting sarcasm.
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It appears that your sarcasm was wasted here, hermano. 
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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03-15-2005, 21:22
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#322
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Quiet Professional
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Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Quote:
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In fact, the 9-11 terrorists were primarily motivated by their hatred for that state and its alliance with the United States.
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How do you know that?
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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03-16-2005, 02:07
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#323
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Guest
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by casey
Thats my point, Saudi Arabia is considered the most PROGRESSIVE of all the Islamic states,
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By who?
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03-16-2005, 06:39
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#324
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: east coast
Posts: 607
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greenhat
By who?
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Finger outside the trigger guard Sir. See subtle biting sacasm post 3 above.
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casey is offline
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03-17-2005, 10:09
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#325
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Guest
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by casey
Finger outside the trigger guard Sir. See subtle biting sacasm post 3 above.
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Well, I think you missed the mark. One, because you effectively denigrated the Islamic nations that are progressive, and two, because you used that sarcastic statement to support your position regarding whether we are at war with Islam thereby nicely holing your own argument with your inability to support it without resorting to sarcasm.
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03-17-2005, 10:42
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#326
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,821
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greenhat
One, because you effectively denigrated the Islamic nations that are progressive...
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Isn't that a judgement call, and pretty relative at that?
The most progressive Moslem country out there is still mired in 14th Century dogma.
Do you really see a lot of Moslem countries advocating progressive causes?
Not to intrude further, but I think casey did say in a subsequent post that he understood and believed that we are at war with Islam.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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03-17-2005, 10:54
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#327
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,952
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
How do you know that?
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Because they said so.
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Airbornelawyer is offline
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03-17-2005, 13:11
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#328
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 20,929
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greenhat
Well, I think you missed the mark. One, because you effectively denigrated the Islamic nations that are progressive, and two, because you used that sarcastic statement to support your position regarding whether we are at war with Islam thereby nicely holing your own argument with your inability to support it without resorting to sarcasm.
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OK GreenHat, please enlighten me, a progressive islamic nation???
You mean progressive in the fact they use sharper swords to chop off heads in public?
Or are you talking about their 21st century stand on religious tolerance?
Please find me an progressive islamic nation that is not a dictatorship.
Sorry GH, I’m not buying it.
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Team Sergeant is offline
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03-17-2005, 15:15
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#329
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: east coast
Posts: 607
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greenhat
Well, I think you missed the mark. One, because you effectively denigrated the Islamic nations that are progressive, and two, because you used that sarcastic statement to support your position regarding whether we are at war with Islam thereby nicely holing your own argument with your inability to support it without resorting to sarcasm.
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It is my opinion that a true Islamic nation cannot be progressive. I used a sarcastic statement not to support anything, but merely to point out the hypocricy of an Islamic state spending millions to bill itself as a truly progressive
nation while teaching the following religious passages to all Saudi high school students:
Studies in Theology: Tradition and Morals, Grade 11, (2001) pp. 291-92 ...This noble [Qur'anic] Surah [Surat Muhammad]... deals with questions of which the most important are as follows: 'Encouraging the faithful to perform jihad in God's cause, to behead the infidels…
"Surahs of Muhammad, Al-Fath, Al-Hujurat and Qaf, Grade 11, (2002) p. 9 …When you meet them in order to fight [them], do not be seized by compassion [towards them] but strike the[ir] necks powerfully, cutting the neck and making the organ [the head of the body] fly off [the body].' "
I have yet to hear a muj yell "take that for my Chechen homeland" "come on lads this is for Pakistan" no, let me think, what is it they yell in religious context??? Allah something or other. (biting sarcasm - no other point intended)
The fact is I choose to believe them when they say that they want Islam to dominate the world, and consume the non-believers, and I have seen how they are preparing. It is a long game to them, and they do what they do for their future generations, not just today. I believe they really mean it when they issue religious edicts, and yes I still believe we are at war with a religion. I hope to God I'm wrong and I'll be the first to post here if so. But in reality I believe our grandchildren will be having this same ole conversation in years to come.
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casey is offline
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03-17-2005, 15:39
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#330
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
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So, casey.
A fine Saint Patty's Day to ya'!
At least we can taste a wee bit o' Guinness today in our progressive country, speak our minds publicly, whether we like the government or no', and go to Mass later, if we wish.
Which progressive Moslem country permits that?
I agree, unless we find a way to kill all of them who wish it, this is going to go on for a long time.
In the end, they will either reform their religion to accept those with other beliefs, subjugate us all, or die for their cause.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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