M-14/M1A

[Huey14]

A mate of mine owns a Mini14. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, but I like the way it fits to my short arms

[longrange1947]

Originally Posted by Huey14

A mate of mine owns a Mini14. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, but I like the way it fits to my short arms

May be fun to shoot, but they have accuracy problems among other problems. I would not compare the two. The M14 is a much better weapon system then the Mini.

I may be stepping on toes but that is life.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by longrange1947

May be fun to shoot, but they have accuracy problems among other problems. I would not compare the two. The M14 is a much better weapon system then the Mini.

I may be stepping on toes but that is life.

Accuracy, durability, availability of spare parts and mags, etc., etc.

I have a Mini-14 as well, and it is no M-14, or even an M-4.

Concur completely with LR.

TR

[Ambush Master]

Originally Posted by longrange1947

May be fun to shoot, but they have accuracy problems among other problems. I would not compare the two. The M14 is a much better weapon system then the Mini.

I may be stepping on toes but that is life.

If you own a Title II Mini, be very cautious about sending it back to Ruger !! They do not believe that "private citizens" should be allowed to own Class 3 weapons .

As far as a .308 goes, I'll stand with my FN LAR !! This puppy hits what I shoot at, and I've made MANY open sight hits way out there !!


Later
Martin

[Huey14]

Oh I'm not surprised at all that it's a better weapon. I've only held an empty stock for an M14 so I couldn't compare the two.

[Huey14]

Originally Posted by Ambush Master

As far as a .308 goes, I'll stand with my FN LAR !! This puppy hits what I shoot at, and I've made MANY open sight hits way out there !!


Later
Martin

An FAL variant is on the top of my list of to get firearms after I've got my licence. They served NZ well for so many years, I'd like to own a piece of history like that.

[longrange1947]

Originally Posted by Ambush Master

If you own a Title II Mini, be very cautious about sending it back to Ruger !! They do not believe that "private citizens" should be allowed to own Class 3 weapons .




Later
Martin

And that is one of its biggest problems. It is made by Ruger.

[Detcord]

Since we're on a Ruger roll here, Bill Ruger has worked with legislators in helping to pass assault-rifle bans to save his own company's product's. What a f*king loser.

As a former Ruger owner (several models), I've sold them all except for a MK II bull bbl .22 pistol I let an ex-girlfriend "borrow."

I didn't really like her that much so I figured that since MK II's are such a pain in the ass to re-assemble, it would be the perfect gun for her. That's been years now, and I still don't miss any of my Ruger's.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by longrange1947

to echo somewhat what Gene stated on handloads, do not shoot heavier than 168 gr in the M14/M1A combo. It causes heavier than normal wear and I have seen two seperate M1As with broken trigger pins and a blown extractor from shooting 175 gr.

Rick:

My experience indicates that it wasn't the ammo but rather something much simpler. The trigger pins and extractor were worn out and finally broke. I replaced an extractor from a AMU Super Match M-14 two years ago while orienting some Infantry snipers to the M-14. I originally got these super match M-14s out of the AMU for 1st SFG some ten years ago and they got abused once I retired. We broke an extractor on the first round fired of issued M-80 ball. It simply gave up the ghost and should have been replaced many years previously.

I won't get started on the problems with M-14s. Anyone who thinks they are the cure all in terms of durability fails to realize that things wear out. Parts of M-14s and Garands wear out faster than parts on M-16s despite those who claim otherwise.

I have no idea where to start with service grade M-14s but I do know a solution that I advise. When one blows out a barrel after five thousand rounds or so, replace the barrel and the following: Every part in the bolt. The oprod, oprod guide, and oprod spring. Replace every part in the trigger housing and take a good look at the gas tube, gas piston, and gas plug. I would advise anyone to take the worn out barreled M-14 to a very competent M-14 guru, hand him one thousand dollars, and tell him to make you a NRA High Power Service Rifle that will shoot match ammo to one minute of angle. If he claims it will shoot consistently and reliably to less than a minute -- I advise going to someone who tells the truth instead. The guy who tells the truth will take about a thousand dollars and made one an M-14 that will shoot a minute consistently with one load but I guarantee you that the rifle will not fail between barrel changes (rebuilding / 5K rounds).

When I shot the M-14, I went to such a M-14 guru once a year and handed him eight hundred dollars to rebuild the rifle. He not only replaced the barrel but changed every single part that could be changed to ensure the rifle would not fail for five thousand more rounds provided I cleaned it after a match. I went to this particular M-14 guru while here in Washington for the last five years I shot the M-14 in competition. The rifle did not fail one single time over those five years and I would put an average of six thousand rounds a season through it. Loads were from 150 to 185 grain. The 175 was not on the market at that time.

I doubt anyone puts a rifle through the abuse a competitive shooter does in terms of rounds fired between major overhauls. I still have that M-14 and it is made to take abuse that no service grade M-14 could take in terms of mean rounds between a failure. It probably could take heavier loads better than a rack grade due to how its gas system was made, double lugging, and a complete change of parts every single year -- needed or not.

Despite the durability of this particular rifle due to preventative maintenance and having it made by a very good M-14 guy, I never loaded it to any maximum in any loading manual and I followed a very strict set of my own loading rules when I did load for it. Thats why I advise guys to simply use commercial ammo for them. It is no secret in terms of loading for them but it does require a lot of self discipline and some careful selection of components and process. All for a rifle that rarely shoots better than a minute no matter who makes the thing.

My advice to guys starting with a rack grade M-14 is to note carefully the roll pins and parts that break, and the various failures to do things when they break. When the barrel is shot out, they will have quite a list and thus will know what they want done when the barrel is replaced. Once a guy has shot out a service grade barrel, he probably knows enough about the M-14 to know what he wants done and how to load for one without blowing it up.

The M-14 is a decent rifle but by no means is it any more reliable than anything else of its era.

Gene

[longrange1947]

Gene, the weapon I was refering to, owned by a former instructor, was a brand new, less than 500 rounds, M1A. The other weapon was a just rebuilt M14NM. Both weapons broke that exact same manner with the first run 175gr ammo.

When I shot the M14NM on a regular basis, the general consensus was to not shoot hotter than the M118NM ammo, 173 gr at 2550, due to heavy recoil pressures. We messed with the 180 gr when they first came out but was not pleased with them.

I agree that if you change out your barrel you need to do a rebuild as the weapon is pretty well shot up. The only thing you left out was the rebedding of your stock. The M14/M1A is notorious for the bedding to go south on a moments notice.

That said, the question, as I understood it, was the guy was going to do plinking and use it as a "collectable", and not comp shooting. IF, it is only plinking then I would not bother with that kind of money.

You shot 185s for 1000 yds? Why not the 155gr?

[Spartan359]

Well I don't know about everyone else but I've learned alot about my rifle from this thread. But I still have a couple of questions. I plink with my rifle and gets used on a regular basis. I've only had it for about two years now and have roughly shot about 10,000 rounds through it. Give or take a few thousand. Not one single problem with it. Nothing has broke. Everytime it gets fired it gets thoroughly cleaned that night. Because nothing has broken I haven't swapped out any parts. As for the ammo that I have fired, I think I have fired everything there is for it. I'm not to keen on using re-loads. When I do use re-loads I only use Australian re-loads. I've had some problems South African and South American re-loads. My questions are:

1. What things in particular should I look for if my rifle starts to fail me?
2. What are some of the causes for a barrel to blow?
3. How can I identify the stock rebedding itself and how do you go about fixing it?

Now that LR47 mentioned the stock rebedding itself I think mine has. The parts sit somewhat at and angle in the stock. While this has not caused any problems with the rifle functioning it just bothers the hell out me that it doesn't sit straight.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Spartan359

Well I don't know about everyone else but I've learned alot about my rifle from this thread. But I still have a couple of questions. I plink with my rifle and gets used on a regular basis. I've only had it for about two years now and have roughly shot about 10,000 rounds through it. Give or take a few thousand. Not one single problem with it. Nothing has broke. Everytime it gets fired it gets thoroughly cleaned that night. Because nothing has broken I haven't swapped out any parts. As for the ammo that I have fired, I think I have fired everything there is for it. I'm not to keen on using re-loads. When I do use re-loads I only use Australian re-loads. I've had some problems South African and South American re-loads. My questions are:

1. What things in particular should I look for if my rifle starts to fail me?
2. What are some of the causes for a barrel to blow?
3. How can I identify the stock rebedding itself and how do you go about fixing it?

Now that LR47 mentioned the stock rebedding itself I think mine has. The parts sit somewhat at and angle in the stock. While this has not caused any problems with the rifle functioning it just bothers the hell out me that it doesn't sit straight.

I do not think that you understand what a reload is.

1. Malfunctions, followed by parts falling apart.

2. Bore obstruction, or very hot loads.

3. If you do not have a bedded action, then you do not have to worry about it. It sounds as if you do not.

TR

[longrange1947]

Originally Posted by Spartan359

Well I don't know about everyone else but I've learned alot about my rifle from this thread. But I still have a couple of questions. I plink with my rifle and gets used on a regular basis. I've only had it for about two years now and have roughly shot about 10,000 rounds through it. Give or take a few thousand. Not one single problem with it. Nothing has broke. Everytime it gets fired it gets thoroughly cleaned that night. Because nothing has broken I haven't swapped out any parts. As for the ammo that I have fired, I think I have fired everything there is for it. I'm not to keen on using re-loads. When I do use re-loads I only use Australian re-loads. I've had some problems South African and South American re-loads. My questions are:

1. What things in particular should I look for if my rifle starts to fail me?
2. What are some of the causes for a barrel to blow?
3. How can I identify the stock rebedding itself and how do you go about fixing it?

Now that LR47 mentioned the stock rebedding itself I think mine has. The parts sit somewhat at and angle in the stock. While this has not caused any problems with the rifle functioning it just bothers the hell out me that it doesn't sit straight.

First of all is it a rack grade weapon, shich I am inclined to believe.

IF it is rack grade then youa re not gettign the best accuracy form it anyway and 10,000 rounds down the tube would indicate that you have probably burned out the barrel about 2000 to 5000 rounds ago depending on the ammo fired. The big question is are you happy with how it shoots? If after all those rounds youa re happy with the way it shoots youcould cojntinue to failure which should be shortly at the rate you fire ammo.

1. Misfeeds, failure to extract, failure to fire, shots hitting next target over, pins failing in the trigger, extrqactor coming loose during firing, operating rod jamming in the figure 8 rod guide due to misalignement, and those are only some the of the fun things, I am sure that Gene can add more.

2. Do you mean barrel blow out or burn out. For a barrel to blow on an M14 would require either gross negligence or ignorance on the level of "you should not be shooting". TR covered the main reasons for that with barrel obstruction being the primary, with hand loads being the second but in 308 it would require using something like pistol powder in a compressed load. You would proaby get a bolt failure and a face full of pwder before you got a barrel to blow.

Now a burned out barrel, which is what you probably already have, is due to nothing more than shooting your weapon. The hotter the round and heavier the bullet the faster the burn out. It begins with benign throat erosion and then you stqrt loosing lands and grooves further and further up the barrel. You can live with some but the further it goes the further the bullet travels before engaging in the lands and grooves. This decreases accuracy and groups open up as the erosion becomes more pronounced.

3. Bedding is done to National Match weapons to stop any shifting of the action in the stock. If you have a rack grade then you do not have a bedded stock and the weapon's stock probably has crushed wood fibers from the recoil and thus the weapon is already loose in the stock. Since it sets cattywhompous, love those big words, makes me feel smarter, alreardy I would say you are not bedded.

My 2 cents, Gene throw in some pennys too.

[NousDefionsDoc]

My 2 cents, Gene throw in some pennys too.

Exchange rate in this case, by my calculations, is about:
1 million USD to the cent.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by longrange1947

Gene, the weapon I was refering to, owned by a former instructor, was a brand new, less than 500 rounds, M1A. The other weapon was a just rebuilt M14NM. Both weapons broke that exact same manner with the first run 175gr ammo.

When I shot the M14NM on a regular basis, the general consensus was to not shoot hotter than the M118NM ammo, 173 gr at 2550, due to heavy recoil pressures. We messed with the 180 gr when they first came out but was not pleased with them.

I agree that if you change out your barrel you need to do a rebuild as the weapon is pretty well shot up. The only thing you left out was the rebedding of your stock. The M14/M1A is notorious for the bedding to go south on a moments notice.

That said, the question, as I understood it, was the guy was going to do plinking and use it as a "collectable", and not comp shooting. IF, it is only plinking then I would not bother with that kind of money.

You shot 185s for 1000 yds? Why not the 155gr?

Rick:

I don't have a clue what caused the problems with the issued 118LR. I doubt it was velocity though. Instead I bet is due to the gas system that is causing some severe stress on parts. Recoil and gas pressures can be controlled in a 14 via work done on the gas piston and plug. Mine has had some work done on the gas piston itself and the gas plug is vented. Not sure if the recoil spring may be heavier or not though. I didn't make it -- only shot it. I do know that the work done on my gas piston and plug reduces recoil while maintaining proper function so I figure the reduced recoil has something to do with its ability to take more of a beating without parts breaking.

The older 'White Box' 118 Match stated 2550 fps but that was based on the issued M-21 or NM 14. My experience is that the currently issued M-24 will get about fifty FPS more than a gas gun. Thats why the M-118 SB and LR state 2600 fps. Because they are checked based on a bolt rifle and not a gas gun. I have some of this 1970s era White Box 118 Match and will chronograph it when we shoot some 24s in a couple of weeks and see what it reads.

At 600 I generally shot 185s that I make and at 1000 I shot either 118 SB or some of my 185s with hand loads. I tried some 155s but found that the issued M-852 Match ammo shot the best of anything through any one of the iterations of M-14 that I had so I stuck with that ammo for 200 and 300. To date I haven't found a better .308 cartridge for 300 yards than that damn M-852 or its commercial equivalents. We never thought of shooting 155s out of an M-14 at 1000 for three reasons. First was prejudice against light bullets. Second, I doubt anyone could get the velocity needed to maintain supersonic speeds at 1000 from a M-14 with anything less than a 173. I do know that I would not even try to get 2950 fps out of my M-14 with a 155. That is way past any envelope I want to push with a .308 gas gun. Third, we were prejudiced in favor of 10 turn twists. Too fast for the lighter bullet for that range.

As the years went by and the 14 disappeared from the firing line due to heavy recoil, less efficient ammunition and cost, we toyed with the idea of having someone make up some 1/13 twist Palma chambered and bored barrels for some M-14s to shoot issued M-80 and the 155s to 600. At 1000 we would still need a twelve or ten turn barrel with bullets of 173 - 190 grains though so this means needing two rifles. I never pursued it because my two brain cells struck together ten years ago and I went to a Match Rifle.

I know the gentleman in question will use his rack grade stick for enjoyment and to treasure. However I also know shooters pretty well and once they see how well something does without tinkering -- they tend to tinker to make it better. So I figure we can at least give him the benefit of our experiences so he can take a better path than we sometimes did.

Gene