Pistol Coaching Via Email

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Competent instructors are worth their weight in custom Harsey blades.

If we all get together on this and pool our resources we could assemble a pretty big composite of a competent instructor. (I'm being conservative. I don't think any one person needs their body weight of Mr. Harsey's product for anything other than their ego. Mine's big, but it ain't that big!) Then we split the loot among the qualified participants. We don't want to use TS for our model though - soaking wet he might weigh 180. I on the other hand can contribute 230. That's another 50 lbs of Mr. Harsey's finest to divvy up. There might even be somebody bigger in here who would consent to be "used" for a worthy cause. All we need are some well heeled victi - uhh - students to pony up the price. Whadayathink?

"Calling the shot" is the technique of recalling the sight alignment and sight picture in the instant the weapon discharged and using that information to predict where the round (was supposed to) impacted on the target. Predicted is then compared to actual. The difference, both direction and distance, is then analysed to determine the causitive factors. The intent is to recall minor discrepancies in SA/SP (tells you where the bullet was supposed to go) and determine the "shooter errors" (incorrect application of marksmanship fundamentals - see Part II, para 3.) that caused the bullet to impact at a point that differs from the predicted. I use this technique when shooting long range rifle, slow fire, with a logbook and a coach to kick my ass and keep me focused. Pistols are more difficult to shoot with the same level of precision. The correct appplication of this technique with a pistol becomes "shot group analysis". Groups are used because minor errors tend to average out (standard shot dispersion) allowing shooter and coach to concentrate on major errors that occur consistently; e.g. anticipating recoil, poor trigger control, breathing, grip, follow-through, and stance. In order for the technique to have any value, the shooter MUST be able to shoot a recognizable group. That means inconsistent SA/SP (no discernable group) should not be the shooter's primary problem. Diagrams showing group placement and suggesting probable causes are available from a number of sources (google-fu). This coaching/training technique rapidly loses value as the shooter progresses from flat range, slow fire to multiple targets, rapid fire, and scenarios. Using progressive principles of training, the shooter should not be allowed to advance until marksmanship abilities exceed a minimum (you figure it out - on my range/apparatus, I figure it out) acceptable standard. (If they can't learn to shoot and hold up the team's progress - give them a shotgun, an aid bag, and tell them to stay out of the way! ) Seriously, the technique has it's uses when training novice shooters. It is mostly a coaching tool. After you leave the flat range - you had better not need it anymore.

Did more typing than I had planned when I started. Peregrino

[Team Sergeant]

[
Recoil is extremely relevant in our profession; rarely do we have the pleasure of facing only one armed adversary.

Airsofters, the US Olympic Shooting team, IPSC shooters all have one thing in common, they will never be in harms way because paper targets don’t shoot back. They practice for and compete in games. The distressing dilemma we face today is that many people that make a living being in harms way have taken lessons from “gamers” and deer hunters.

While the best IPSC shooter in the world might make one an impressive shot, the improper application of tactics in a real world fight will get one killed as fast as a knife fighter in a gun fight. I have witnessed, first hand, world class IPSC shooters engaging paper targets, utilizing movement techniques to close with their targets that would get one killed stone cold dead in a “real” fight.

You do not send an A-Team to hunt for a bank robber; you do not send a four man local sheriff team to hunt an unknown number of heavily armed terrorists. LEO’s do not take this as an insult, we merely have different ROE and different training. Most state, local and federal agencies cannot afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars on individual shooting skills, US Special Operations can and does. (I sleep well at night knowing the local LEO’s stand guard in my current AO.)

If it’s your desire to punch paper by all means take lessons from an IPSC shooter, want to deer hunt, read deer hunting magazines and take lessons from deer hunters.

If it is your desire to keep America safe and place bad people behind bars become an LEO, they live in harms way each and every day.

If you desire to keep the world a safer place, try out for one of the many SOF positions available in today’s military.

De Oppresso Liber

Team Sergeant

[Team Sergeant]

(Warning: Do not try this technique with a real handgun and bullets as Serious injury or death can occur! Warning!)

What do you think would happen given a large caliber handgun, say, .45. and using ONLY two fingers (thumb and middle finger actually) to hold the grip and one other to pull the trigger, what do you think a five shot group would look like at say 15-20 feet?

Instructors?

(Warning: Do not try this technique with a real handgun and bullets as Serious injury or death can occur! Warning!)

[The Reaper]

You can't stop recoil. It is a mechanical function.

Your job is to align the barrel with the target, release a projectile cleanly, and recover as quickly as possible to repeat as needed.

TR

[Peregrino]

That's why pistol marksmanship fundamentals start with stance and grip and end with follow-through and recovery. (Advanced shooting modifies stance to read "shooting platform" 'cause you're supposed to be moving.) These principles prepare you to shoot the first target and "enable" you to make followup shots on the original target or transition to a new one. All four principles prepare you to deal with recoil. Peregrino

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Razor

So, what did you get for the TS?

It is not ready yet. Great things take time. I am sure he will post photos when he gets it.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

(Warning: Do not try this technique with a real handgun and bullets as Serious injury or death can occur! Warning!)

I am so proud.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

It is not ready yet. Great things take time. I am sure he will post photos when he gets it.

Like the Oban?

TR

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

What do you think would happen given a large caliber handgun, say, .45. and using ONLY two fingers (thumb and middle finger actually) to hold the grip and one other to pull the trigger, what do you think a five shot group would look like at say 15-20 feet?[/COLOR]

seems to me that the methodology you suggest would best be left in novels about pistol dueling in the eighteenth century...time between shots would be a second or more and the group would be...well, it would rather large for twenty feet...probably the size of a standard silouette target...of course that is dependent on the rate of fire...if one tried to force a round per second using that grip, the sky's the limit...

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Like the Oban?

TR

Good point. But there is still time. I am assuming that the right occasion has not yet presented itself.

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

(Warning: Do not try this technique with a real handgun and bullets as Serious injury or death can occur! Warning!)

What do you think would happen given a large caliber handgun, say, .45. and using ONLY two fingers (thumb and middle finger actually) to hold the grip and one other to pull the trigger, what do you think a five shot group would look like at say 15-20 feet?

Instructors?

(Warning: Do not try this technique with a real handgun and bullets as Serious injury or death can occur! Warning!)

Actually I have performed this STUNT (that's exactly what it is/was) as a confidence demonstration for students who had been brainwashed/terrified by a previous "instructor" or "Walter Mittie" gun writer pushing a 9mm agenda. This was a pretty common occurance when the initial arguments in favor of the M9 were being fielded. It goes a long way towards dispelling the myths about the "awesome" uncontrollable recoil of the 1911. Group size was respectable. I did NOT have the students repeat the demonstration. I would not recommend attempting this with a magnum revolver. Thankfully, real world experience and more credible instructors and gun writers/gurus are restoring the .45's popularity with the general populace so this is no longer the problem/perception it was.

I also remember Paul Poole in the late 70's at Mott Lake shooting a 1911 held upside down in a loose (but controlled) grip and manipulating the trigger with his pinky (little finger). He shot very respectably and it didn't matter how he held the pistol. Recoil control (follow-through and recovery) does not require a "death grip". It does require paying attention and mastering some basic principles.

Will an inadequate/incorrect grip allow anyone to fire as rapidly and accurately as a proper grip/stance? Will it adequately control recoil? Emphatically NO! Is it recomended? Again - NO. That's why TS highlighted his warnings. All shooters should concentrate on assuming a "combat stance" (aggressive is the shortest description), firm high grip, getting adequate support from the non-firing hand (whenever possible), achieving a frontsight focus, executing a controlled squeeze of the trigger, and riding the front sight back into the target so you can repeat as required until the threat isn't there any more.

Nowhere in the previous discussions are tactics included! This is just one step in a series of steps to gain marksmanship proficiency as you work towards becoming combat effective. FWIW.

Next! Peregrino

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

Win, win - if you're right and you don't draw fire we learn and you collect positive points. If you're right but you do draw fire, time to work on your delivery. If you're wrong - we get entertained and you learn a valuable lesson.

*deep breathing....gulp*

Originally Posted by Peregrino

Recoil control (follow-through and recovery) does not require a "death grip". It does require paying attention and mastering some basic principles.

natural point of aim exercises...?

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by frostfire

*deep breathing....gulp* natural point of aim exercises...?

Short answers. Natural point of aim contributes to precision marksmanship. A couple of points to keep in mind:

1. Natural POA implies standing flatfooted and using a traditional stance. Get in stance, close eyes, point gun, open eyes, shift feet to put gun on target, repeat as required. Ask TS what he thinks of the idea. (I'll save you some effort - If somebody is shooting back at you, it's suicide.)

2. Combat marksmanship is based on a series of "range rings" depending on weapon type. Pistols are usually (YMMV) < 7 meters, between 7 and 15 meters and > 15 meters. Each distance will have tradeoff between speed and accuracy. As range increases you lose speed to gain accuracy. Close range uses a "flash" sight picture and "aimed quick kill". Find the front sight, put it in the target's abdomen (with just front sight bullets strike high), and start pulling the trigger. Intermediate range uses "rapid aimed fire". This is a compromise sight picture - ensure both sights are visible, align left/right, don't worry excessively about up/down (kill zone is taller than it is wide), and pull the trigger. Long range (no room for error) uses "slow aimed fire" - proper sight alignment/sight picture and application of marksmanship fundamentals. Speed and the amount of time available/required for acceptable accuracy is relative. That doesn't mean you are doing anything "slowly"; it just means that compared to short and intermediate range shooting, you are taking more time to ensure the more difficult shot. Gunfight statistics show 1st round hit wins 80+% of gunfights. 1st round miss wins less than 50%. There is more to this but I have to go get the pizza for dinner.

Now that I'm back from pizza - edited to add:

3. If you're worried about Natural POA one of two things applies:
a. You're not in a gunfight. Relax, enjoy your day at the range, and work on developing the skills that make the pistol an extension of your will.
b. You're using a pistol to engage a threat at rifle/carbine ranges. Look for another solution, especially if the other guy has a long gun. The time you spend trying to make a low percentage shot can be better used seeking cover, evading, calling reinforcements, etc.

Deep breathing has nothing to do with good shooting - hyperventilate on your own time. Peregrino

[AngelsSix]

You guys mind if I throw something out there?? Muscle memory is important. Training with a new gun is going to take time for your muscles to adjust (especially with a larger caliber).

Two very important things I learned with a very competant instructor (ahem!! I won't mention any names ) was that someone who truly knows how to shoot, understands the mechanics of shooting and knows what you are doing wrong just by looking at the placement (or Not) of your shots is the one key to shooting success.

I fired the requal for my 9mm a coupls of weeks ago. Now I typically train indoors, and never fire more that 15 feet. We fired for requal on a windy day, outside, in the blazing sun. It is usually dark and still in the range where I practice.
I learned to work on making each shot count, not the group as a whole, because like it has been mentioned, once you can call the individual shots, they come together as a whole. For the first time in three years, I qualified expert. The male next to me couldn't understand why he didn't do well. I told him exactly what he was doing wrong just by looking at his paper. I also watched him shoot. He was rushing, not keeping his stance even and jerking the trigger. He was all over the paper.

Taking your time and shooting well is always better that spraying bullets downrange and not hitting anything.

GRIP, STANCE, BREATHING, SLOW, SQUEEZE.

[Tubbs]

Originally Posted by AngelsSix

You guys mind if I throw something out there?? Muscle memory is important. Training with a new gun is going to take time for your muscles to adjust (especially with a larger caliber).

.

I totally agree with this. Muslce memory is very impotant. I spend just as much time at home practiceing popor grip, stance, trigger pull and shot follow up etc. as I do at the range. If its not muscle memeory you will fail to preform the action sucssfully in a high stress situation (I found that out the hard way fortuantely in training... semper pushups...)
If you spend tow hours a week at the range you should spend at least two hours at home, if not more, practicing your technique through dry fire exercises. This is similar to snapping in for a week before going to qual at the rifle range.
Get yourself a big mirror and remeber, slow is smooth and smooth is fast... are you talkin' to me?