M9 Issues

[The Reaper]

Let me add that when Mott Lake was still teaching CQB at Bragg, they kept a couple of large corrugated boxes strapped to 3'x3' shipping pallets and returned them after they filled up with broken slides in one box, and bad barrels/sheared lugs in the other.

They made a LOT of shipments of the broken parts.

I tried to give two bad barrels with sheared locking lugs and a broken slide to the Beretta rep when he came to the local gun store, he looked at me like I was handing him a water moccasin and refused to even touch them.

TR

[SERPENT5XX]

Gentlemen,

Hopefully the M9 will go away in SOF.

It may be a great gun for a person that carries it but only shoots 100 rounds a year and feels they actually NEED a de-cock and a safe together (I hate that feature) on a combat gun. Personally I have seen several guys transition to their secondary only to find the de-cock safe has done its thing and is on de-cock/safe when you do not want it to be. Fortunately only in training so far, but I love the look on their face when the gun will not go bang. Of course a burst of expletives will usually issue forth from their mouth after they figure out what has happened. Speaking of that I noticed the 2004 SFAUC manual actually shows the M9 being holstered and drawn in the De-cock safe mode!? This is a change from years past.
Are they teaching this at Bragg now?
Reaper?
What is the deal?

I would love to have a 1911 style gun. I grew up with the 1911 in SF and shoot several of my own when I can. The HK-USP’s are OK but a 1911 would be better.

About locking blocks.
According to a guy in the know, the current M9 locking block is version # 4 and costs Uncle Sugar $84.00!!! They all break. I have not seen a difference in the "new" ones as far as durability.


SERPENT5XX

[SERPENT5XX]

Gentlemen,

Here is a pic of a broken M9 locking block.

All the ones I have seen break, all fail on the same side. Sometimes there is a tell-tale “peening” on the flange before it breaks and sometimes not. I have inspected the block at the end of a range day and it looked fine. The next day on the range it breaks within the first couple of drills. The problem is you never know if the round in the chamber has fired or not when the slide freezes up. Usually the round is has been fired, but not always.
Instant paper weight!


SERPENT5XX

[Basenshukai]

Originally Posted by SERPENT5XX

Gentlemen,

Hopefully the M9 will go away in SOF.

It may be a great gun for a person that carries it but only shoots 100 rounds a year and feels they actually NEED a de-cock and a safe together (I hate that feature) on a combat gun. Personally I have seen several guys transition to their secondary only to find the de-cock safe has done its thing and is on de-cock/safe when you do not want it to be. Fortunately only in training so far, but I love the look on their face when the gun will not go bang. Of course a burst of expletives will usually issue forth from their mouth after they figure out what has happened. Speaking of that I noticed the 2004 SFAUC manual actually shows the M9 being holstered and drawn in the De-cock safe mode!? This is a change from years past.
Are they teaching this at Bragg now?
Reaper?
What is the deal?

I would love to have a 1911 style gun. I grew up with the 1911 in SF and shoot several of my own when I can. The HK-USP’s are OK but a 1911 would be better.

About locking blocks.
According to a guy in the know, the current M9 locking block is version # 4 and costs Uncle Sugar $84.00!!! They all break. I have not seen a difference in the "new" ones as far as durability.


SERPENT5XX

SFAUC Committee might have changed their teaching methodology and I cannot speculate as to why. However, company-wide, our SOP is to have the secondary weapon on fire with a round in the chamber while holstered. The SFAUC committee did teach to finger the safety lever (with the thumb, of course) to ensure that the weapon was, in fact, ready to fire. We practiced it often enough (all the time) as to make that check instantaneous and part of the movement of drawing the weapon.

My personal M9 is the 92 G version with only a decocker. I feel this is a much better approach. I also own two Glocks, which I like because besides being the "AK 47" of handguns (as far as durability), they are always ready to fire.

[SERPENT5XX]

Roger- Basensukai,

We carry our M9's the same way. I am sure the reason Beretta came up with the "G" model 92 was to address the dislike with the de-cock safe in the civilian market. Given the choice I would certainly prefer a "G" model to a "F" any day. You have to wonder why the M9 has a de-cock safe in the first place.

We used some Glocks in Iraq and Afghanistan. Some guys like them and some did not. The main issue with the guys who did not like them was the lack of a positive safety when re-holstering especially during concealed carry. Operators were used to re-holstering the M9 with their thumb on the hammer of the pistol (as taught at Mid-South). This is a safety precaution and allows you to feel if anything is pulling the trigger. Usually unlikely, but I have seen guys try to push a M9 in one of the old nylon drop-leg holsters and catch the retaining strap in the trigger. Not hard to do when you are in a rush and have a ton of lightweight assaulter gear on or it is dark and you are trying to get your pistol back in your holster so you can get your M4 back up. Luckily the guy felt the hammer come back and stopped pushing. Also a old SF guy who worked at one of the major civilian shooting schools told me of the three AD's he had seen where people have shot themselves it was a Glock each time and happened when re-holstering. They believe the guys shirt caught the trigger when being pushed in the holster. This guy loved Glocks and I am certainly not slamming Glocks, I like them and have several. This is just my observation and the observation of the guys that carried them OCONUS.
The point here is to know the strengths and weaknesses of each tool and plan accordingly. The Glock is a tough durable weapon and I think it would be great tool for SF.

SERPENT5XX

[Psywar1-0]

Ive had the same Ah Shit myself one too many times. Led me to start carrying a M9 with non ball ammo as my stateside CCW. I really prefer my compact 45, but.........

Now If I could just get a leatherman that had better fragmentation

[Basenshukai]

Originally Posted by Psywar1-0

Now If I could just get a leatherman that had better fragmentation

I'm telling my 18E about this quote!!! By the way, he now keeps the Leatherman pouch well away from his 9mm pouches ... just in case. Though, I don't think he's ever gonna live this down.

[Sinister]

PSYWAR, we at the AMU are going to bring the six M1911"A2" pistols we have been prototyping for USASOC to Tampa on the 7th of December.

The common line is a Caspian light-rail frame, stainless steel match barrel and bushing, extended thumb safety, lanyard loop, flared loading well, and Ed Brown beavertail...

The options include one of five different suppressors, operator-option sight (adjustable Novak Combat with glow-in-the-dark/day fiber optic dots, or Bo-Mar with the same options -- they quick-fit in the dove-tail); different finishes (Bear Coat; NP-3; some other different ones, between black, grey, and coyote); internal or external ejector.

[Chindo18Z]

Greetings Serpent: I have posted or responded to similar threads on The High Road & The Firing Line firearms bulletin boards. Problems with my unit's M9s got me searching those internet boards for precisely your reasons a coupla years ago.

In a nutshell, you are not dreaming. The M9s are boat anchors. Mostly locking block failures; sometimes trigger return springs. During the late 80s / early 90s (when we didn't shoot them a lot), they held together. Once we turned up the round count, the emperor had no clothes. Seen 'em start to fail as early as 2500-4000 rounds.

Here is a representative response I wrote for a High Road thread. The original poster wanted to know who had ACTUALLY seen Beretta failures vs. passing around choking doberman stories. My reponse:

"Problems w/ My Beretta (M9):

I have had a locking block lug shear off in my weapon while firing (completely jammed the weapon; required trip to armorer's vise and hand tools to disassemble and remove). This occurred during CQB type training course in 2000.

I have had a trigger return spring break while firing, disabling trigger function. This occurred 2001.

I have replaced a second locking block on a second M9 after discovering crack (about 40% thru lug) while performing weapon maintenance after firing. 2001

Problems w/ Others' Berettas (also M9s):

I observed the trigger return spring on my boss's M9 break during range trainup for Afghanistan. He was amazed that the trigger no longer made the gun go boom. Occurred 2001.

I have had one of my team member's M9 go down due to broken locking block while standing in the middle of nowhere (expedient firing range) in Bosnia. This was disconcerting to him because he was now the only dude in sight without a working weapon. We laughed at him...but it wasn't really funny. 1998.

I have observed another team member's M9 drop the trigger return spring into the dirt while practicing transition drills. To be fair, his right grip panel had become loose and he didn't notice until he drew and weapon failed to fire. Occurred 1999. During the same range session, another NCO's M9 suffered from having the right decocking lever (an aluminum casting) shear off (probably from being chunked into a pile of LBV and other gear while holstered in the owner's assault vest).

I have seen 2 broken locking blocks at remote detachment firebases in Afghanistan (two different locations). 2002.

I once counted forty-seven (47) broken locking blocks (collected in a little pile) produced by the 83 assigned weapons in my unit during a 12 month period (Oct 99-Oct 00). We were using the pistols quite a bit...

On the Other Hand:

I recently watched about 20+ soldiers conduct M9 familiarization drills using the same four range weapons for everyone. Each man fired between 50 and 100 rds. All weapons functioned without a stutter.

I once deliberately put 850+ rds thru my M9 without benefit of additonal oil or cleaning (other than applying a shaving brush to knock of the sand) just to see if I could get that puppy to jam. It didn't...but it started to cycle sluggishly. At that point, I field stripped it on the range during lunch hour, did a modicum of cleaning with a brush and a rag, added some CLP, and was back to firing after lunch. This was a CQB type training course involving a lot of movement thru a range surface made of sand.

I carry a Beretta because I have to. It's issued. I also own one so that I can practice on my own time with the same type weapon I am issued.

Personally Observed Problems Other Pistols (Just to be Fair):

In 1978, the plunger tube on my GI 1911A1 started to work loose but never actually interfered with function. Armorer repaired it.

In 1983, I had the firing pin stop on another GI 1911A1 completely break in half while firing (which of course disabled the weapon). I dropped a new one in (spare parts in range kit) after re-seating the firing pin/firing pin spring and was good to go.

I also saw another 1911A1 dropped from the back of a moving 2.5 ton truck (out of an unfastened shoulder holster). The pistol landed on a clay tank trail and was promptly run over by the back set of wheels (the deuce and a half was backing up). The owner, a might bit concerned, policed up the weapon, knocked the clay and sand off, walked over to the firing line, and loaded her up. She fired without a hitch and continued to fire accurately for the next 2 weeks of training. If you ever plan on running over your weapon, I heartily endorse a steel frame over an aluminum one .

Not a Pistol, But:

I have had the operating rod break clean thru on an AK-47 (right behind the gas piston). Really."
__________________
Figure the Odds...

BTW: The 1911 vignettes happened out at Mott Lake (back in the day).

SFAUC sustainment will continue to kill our Berettas until we get what we need.

Have you read the message delineating requirements for the new SOF SCP/CCP? Ding Dong... the witch is dead (hopefully).

HK USP/C good. SIG 220 good. Custom 1911 very good. All good. M9 bad. Please God, don't let them screw this up...

I generally avoid Immediate Argument Drills concerning the M9 (but you're a Group guy and you asked ). Some people love theirs. I'm happy for them. Then again, some folks just don't know what they don't know...

[Roguish Lawyer]

Team Sergeant:

Your thoughts?

[Sinister]

Hah! I gotta remember that!

[jatx]

I have some experience with the USP Compact. In one day of training last year, I ran about 400 rounds through mine and experienced multiple malfunctions. The slide would not return to full battery after being released on several occasions (and I wasn't just thumbling the slide release). That was easily solved by smacking the rear of the slide. Then, with each of my four magazines, I experienced double feeds. Finally, I experienced multiple extraction problems, with the spent casings sometimes rotating 180 degrees and getting stuck in the chamber, sometimes flying straight backward and leaving a bloody mark on my forehead.

I walked off the range and called it a day when the rear sight worked loose. The gun was brand new (<1000 rounds), clean, and I was shooting plain old 230 gr. Winchester hardball. Not sure I'd want to see you guys depending on this one, either, FWIW. Oh, and the 8 lbs. "single action" trigger pull isn't exactly a winner, either...

[The Reaper]

Team Sergeant!!!

Tr

[shadowflyer]

I have a USP Compact .40 and I have put about 10-15k rounds through it with only 1 witnessed malfunction. I have put 500-1000 rounds through it in one day training sessions with no issues. I clean it religiously and have had no issues with it .....save the one malfunction and I attributed that to crappy ammo as I switched ammo and I have not had any issues since.

Just My .02 cents worth.

JJ

Originally Posted by jatx

I have some experience with the USP Compact. In one day of training last year, I ran about 400 rounds through mine and experienced multiple malfunctions. The slide would not return to full battery after being released on several occasions (and I wasn't just thumbling the slide release). That was easily solved by smacking the rear of the slide. Then, with each of my four magazines, I experienced double feeds. Finally, I experienced multiple extraction problems, with the spent casings sometimes rotating 180 degrees and getting stuck in the chamber, sometimes flying straight backward and leaving a bloody mark on my forehead.

I walked off the range and called it a day when the rear sight worked loose. The gun was brand new (<1000 rounds), clean, and I was shooting plain old 230 gr. Winchester hardball. Not sure I'd want to see you guys depending on this one, either, FWIW. Oh, and the 8 lbs. "single action" trigger pull isn't exactly a winner, either...

[Chindo18Z]

Sinister: PSYWAR, we at the AMU are going to bring the six M1911"A2" pistols we have been prototyping for USASOC to Tampa on the 7th of December.

The common line is a Caspian light-rail frame, stainless steel match barrel and bushing, extended thumb safety, lanyard loop, flared loading well, and Ed Brown beavertail...

The options include one of five different suppressors, operator-option sight (adjustable Novak Combat with glow-in-the-dark/day fiber optic dots, or Bo-Mar with the same options -- they quick-fit in the dove-tail); different finishes (Bear Coat; NP-3; some other different ones, between black, grey, and coyote); internal or external ejector.

Sinister: Some thoughts (from the peanut gallery) on selling your 1911 concept to higher...

1. Don't make the mistake of getting lost in the weeds over tricked out guns.
1-10th SFG did this and wound up not getting anything. Every SME in every Group has an opinion; debating Kimber vs. Springfield vs. Colt vs. Wilson vs. Caspian will just get the project derailed. Don't get locked into a death spiral over brand loyalty or special feature minutia.

2. Remember that the real bottom line is...THE BOTTOM LINE $. If AMU can produce & support (maintenance-wise) enough pistols to equip the force, I'm all for it. Better still, let AMU honcho the specs, then contract the weapon out to firm/s (not necessarily Crane) which can mass produce. You are going to need well over 10,000 weapons to equip USSOCOM units. Every nice to have (but gratuitous) feature will drive the cost up...

3. Remember KISS. The 1911A1 rep was built upon caliber, reliability, durability, user repairability in the field, excellent speed/accuracy of SA first shot, and acceptable combat accuracy. Build a "race gun" and everything will suffer except for caliber & accuracy. Don't build a target pistol. With a .45 ACP 1911A2, accuracy and lethality will take care of themselves. As the Democrats might say (in a different universe): "It's About the Reliability Stupid...".

4. I agree with including Light Rail, Beavertail Safety, Lanyard Loop, and Beveled Magazine Well. Having said that, consider:

Things To Not Include:

a. National Match Barrel and Bushing: NOT. STICK WITH A STOCK STAINLESS BARREL AND STANDARD BUSHING. A well designed 1911A2 of recent manufacture would provide more than acceptable accuracy for 98% of our shooters while staying inside of slop parameters required to ensure absolute reliability in the field. Everyone seems to have forgotten this virtue (which was inherent in the A1). Next thing you know, someone will want to peen the rails, tighten the slide, and do action jobs on all the guns.

A newly manufactured WWII spec gun, with a standard barrel & bushing, decent grips, and some MODERN sights, will put them in the X-ring out to 25 meters. The object is to keep this level of accuracy while retaining the ability for an 18B to replace parts in the field (without gunsmithing) AND ensure reliable cycle of function in all environments and terrain. If you hand me an IPSC game gun to haul over to Absurdistan, I'm probably going to throw it back at you and just take the damn M9.

Before anyone interjects that certain USSOCOM units have a higher accuracy requirement than Group, NSW, STS, 160th, CA, PSYOPS, and RGR RGT...keep in mind that they have in-house assets to build and maintain their guns. We are trying to arrive at a reliable tool which will inhabit the arms rooms and holsters of the average ODA (or USN Platoon). Let's face it...most of our guys are not really pistol competitors, gunsmiths, or handgun afficiondos. When it comes to handguns, most are journeyman as opposed to experts and would as soon read MAXIM as COMBAT HANDGUNS. They regard their weapons as tools and will pretty much do well with whatever is issued (through exceptional training, lots of ammo, repetitious drills, and mindset). Attempting to provide enhanced accuracy, while commendable, is a disservice to a guy who now needs a barrel wrench to disassemble/clear his tightly hand-fitted and sand-filled weapon. Anything which requires Depot or Manufacturer Level maintenance is a detriment to accomplishing the mission. Company Armorers will have neither the skills nor the parts needed to hand-fit new National Match Barrels to mated bushings. Emphasize marksmanship fundamentals (rolled into proper combat firing techniques) in lieu of mechanical improvement to POTENTIAL accuracy.

b. Adjustable Sights: Adjustables are of dubious utility. One more thing to break. Ensure the weapon shoots POA w/ 230 ball. Optional heights for dovetail front sight if different weight bullets become standard. High visibility, low profile, plain black Novaks would suffice. Tritium dots look like railroad flares thru night vision devices. I have read good things about the Novak adjustables w/ tritium but would want to see some serious torture testing before committing to them.

c. Extended thumb safety: DON'T GO THERE. I've carried cocked and locked 1911s for almost 30 years (military & civilian concealed, military CQB assault carry, vehicular ops, airborne ops, waterborne ops, winter warfare, desert ops, mountain ops, jungle ops, and countless woodland patrols). I've used most types (if not brands) of holsters throughout this period. Whether wearing a suit coat, driving a car, rolling over the lip of a window frame or roof parapet, crawling through concrete rubble, low crawling across a forest floor, or blasting out of a C-130...extended thumb safeties are a BAD idea. They tend to disengage while in the holster. Ambidexterous extended safties are even worse. The standard safety that JMB put on the gun is fine (with the knurling found on the early model 1911A1s). CQB Operators can reach the OME safety just fine as is (even while wearing NOMEX gloves).

d. External Extractor: WHY? (Besides cheaper for manufacturer). One more place for little gritty things to enter the action. One less thing that can be replaced or tweaked by the operator while deployed. If it ain't broken...leave it alone.

e. Gucci Finish: You could lose a lot of $ cost $ by losing this as an issue. Parkerization worked pretty damn well for 80+ years. If the color coordination of my Gucci Kit is really a concern, spray paint works fine (you should see my raggedy looking Safariland 6004 or my M4A1). If the enemy is close enough to detect the color of my non-concealed holstered weapon, I've got other concerns. The only thing I expect my opponent to see of my 1911 is a large black hole before I kill him. Matte Gray or OD phosphated finish would be fine for all environments (with the obvious exception of needing black sights). Stainless is good, but covered up in gray/OD finish (like SIG 220 or Glock)

f. Alloy Frame: NO. I loathe every extra ounce I am forced to carry. I'm already going to have to carry more ammo weight in .45 rounds and magazines vs. 9mm. However, my gut experience tells me that we (SOF) will wear out aluminum framed guns much earlier than advertised by whomever builds them. I'd say stick with all-steel frame and avoid looking for replacement handguns 10 years from now. I used to carry an all-steel 1911A1 to the field; I'll willingly do it again.

Additionally, overall accuracy will decline for most guys due to the loss of recoil-dampening weight in an alloy gun (especially in compact version).

g. MIM, Cast, Plastic Parts: While we are on the subject, ABSOLUTELY NO MIM OR PLASTIC PARTS. ESPECIALLY EJECTORS, SLIDE STOPS, FIRING PIN STOPS, EXTRACTORS...

h. Front Slide Serrations: Tits on a Boar. Save the $ and lose 'em.

Additional Things to Include:

a. Stippeled Front Strap: YES. Otherwise, everyone is just going to put skate board tape across the bow anyway...

b. Figure out a bomb-proof spring set-up that can handle .45 +P or .45 Super. The latest SNL (as you know) requires this. Make it work without FLGRs and silly-ass shock buffers. Standard bushing.

c. Optional Arched Steel Mainspring Housing. Some of us old farts prefer them

d. Throated & Ported: YES. One of the few justifiable improvements to the original design besides sight replacement. Probably already thought of but I didn't see it listed.

Looking at all that I have written above, I'm essentially describing something like the Springfield TLE. Any good brand will do. Just make sure that it will go bang everytime and anywhere. Keep It Simple Stupid. Functional and Lethal...Not Pretty.

Well, opinions are like you know what and YMMV. I wish you well in getting us a 1911A2. I would really love to resurrect my favorite war-horse but won't cry if the new pistol winds up being an HK or SIG. Good Luck in December!