08-11-2004, 10:32
|
#16
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
|
Since I don't have access to the book yet, please explain briefly how it has nothing to do with Islam.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
|
|
NousDefionsDoc is offline
|
|
|
08-11-2004, 11:44
|
#17
|
|
Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 995
|
Thank you Jimbo!
NDD this is effectively a brief (very brief) overview of the book.
HTH,
Solid
|
|
Solid is offline
|
|
|
08-11-2004, 12:00
|
#18
|
|
Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: East Coast
Posts: 438
|
Alright, let me try to explain. Many of the terrorists who have carried out attacks against the US, including the hijackers on Sept 11th, were not very religious. Some came from famlies who were, by and large, secular.
Well, wait a second. I thought this was ISLAMIC terrorism. I thought these were ISLAMIC fundamentalists.
Some are. Most are not. 90 percent of the leadership is.
So why do these assclowns do this?
Mostly, it seems, the 'foot soldiers' are looking for some way to define themselves. Usually, they have had a completely unremarkable life and for some psychological reason (another discussion) they feel a need to make an impact.
Also, when Muslims travel away from their homelands, they are often descriminated against or somehow made to feel unwelcome in their new home. (the fault for this I think lies with Islamic schools and many Islamic leaders who have done little to prepare their brethern to interact with other societies). In such situations, individuals tend to seek out others like themselves.
At this point, in both the first example and the second, chance, chaos theory and social networks come into serious play. Particularly, as I mentioned earlier, if the person feels that all of his friends are into jihad, he will likely go along with it (again, this is a whole other discussion that delves into cultural anthropology).
If the individual has prior social contact with someone associated with the global jihad, they have a better chance of becoming a terrorist. If they do not, the chances they will become a terrorist drop precipitously (especially if they find some other way to define themselves or relate to their new environment).
So, for example, say Ahmed is an engineer who is underemployed in his native Egypt. He is educated and not very religious. He moves to Chicago to pursue the American dream, but he does not find work right away and does not pick up on English all that well or quickly. So he starts looking for some people to hang out with who are like him. Maybe, at this point, Ahmed sees a flyer for a group of young immigrant professionals. He goes to one of their coffee hours and runs into an older engineer who is from Jordan or Burkina Faso. Older guy says, "Hey I was once like you. Have a job." Ahmed works as an engineer at a doohicky plant making $60,000, finds a nice Algerian woman, marries and drive the family around their suburb in their C class Mercedes. Ahmed dies in the US at the ripe old age of 78 and seven of his grandchildren are there. One is a SFC in the Army.
Now, say a sexy girl in a tight mini walks by and Ahmed is distracted and misses the young professionals flyer. He's walking down the street kicking a rock and thinks, "Hey. Its Friday. I'll go catch some people as they come out of prayer at the mosque, since I know I can find someone who speaks Arabic and might be able to hook me up with a job." So Ahmed rolls down to the Mosque. As people are milling about after prayer, he sees a guy he recognizes from his flight over/apartment building/corner shop. He goes over and introduces himself. This guy says, come drink chai with us and rap about current events. So Ahmed does, but he does not agree with everything that is said. But he has new friends, so he sticks around. Some of his friends make comments about his clothes and his hair and how he looks at girls. So he starts dressing different and ...you get the picture.
However, in the example above, if Ahmed does not know anyone in the jihad and none of his buddies do either, they are not very likely to start up a cell of their own. Its possible, but not likely. But if Ahmed had a cousin in Egypt who knew a guy who was looking for people to go to Afghanistan or Bosnia or Chechnya or Iraq, well, then, these guys might get to go.
I'll write more later.
__________________
They only the victory win
Who have fought the good fight and have vanquished the demon that tempts us within;
Who have held to their faith unseduced by the prize that the world holds on high;
Who have dared for a high cause to suffer, resist, fight—if need be, to die.
Last edited by Jimbo; 08-11-2004 at 12:05.
|
|
Jimbo is offline
|
|
|
08-11-2004, 13:39
|
#19
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
|
That's pretty much what I thought you were going to say and is pretty much right out of Origins of Terrorism .
It does not however, validate your statement that Islam has nothing to do with it. As you yourself said, 90% of the leadership is. And Islam is the vehicle that lends legitimacy to the rest of their doctrine. It is the means to get past any aversion to doing what the leadership feels must be done. Just like Liberation Theology got the Latino Catholics past it. Just like communism got many past it.
Islam has quite a bit to do with it, IMO. It is the means to the end. Classic HFCUI.
You are treading dangerously close to the social worker theory espoused by the left for so long.
As for your examples, good recruiters will always target likely prospects. I would think there is a good deal more active recruiting of the disenfranchised than there is accidental encounters. How hard can it be to find out who is unemployed and doing poorly in English classes in these small tightly knit communities? The mosques and madrasas are the keys, as they are the centers of social life. And they both have everything to do with Islam.
I agree it is about a power struggle. But the power comes from and leads back to the Quoran. Motives for joining will always vary, but the sense of belonging to the group as you describe is facilitated by a group that includes the after life and is in agreement with everything they have been taught since birth. Take away Islam, with its mullahs, indoctrination, and promises - and you have an organizaed group of unemployed. Add it back in, you have a global terrorist movement.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
|
|
NousDefionsDoc is offline
|
|
|
08-11-2004, 13:59
|
#20
|
|
Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: East Coast
Posts: 438
|
Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
You are treading dangerously close to the social worker theory espoused by the left for so long.
|
Yeah. I'm pretty sure I am. Since AQ leadership was heavily influenced by Marxism, I think that would kind of make sense.
Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
As for your examples, good recruiters will always target likely prospects. I would think there is a good deal more active recruiting of the disenfranchised than there is accidental encounters. How hard can it be to find out who is unemployed and doing poorly in English classes in these small tightly knit communities? The mosques and madrasas are the keys, as they are the centers of social life. And they both have everything to do with Islam.
|
There is very little evidence of top down recruitment in AQ. Folks I know have used the recruitment chapter from HFCUI as a hypothesis for investigating this current issue and have not found more than a few incidents to back it up. Granted, they COULD get their act together and do some good recruitng, however that would leave tehm open to penetration and frankly, enough people want to join that they do not have to recruit all that much. From open sources, recruitment more accurately consists of facilitation of travel to a camp.
I am unaware of Origins of Terrorism's chapter on social networks (both analog and digital) (with attendent discussion of Granovetter's Strength of Weak Ties) and their effect on entry into a terrorist group.
If you are basing your understanding of Islamic terrrorism on Reich's book, I think you are doing yourself a disservice. There are several books out that I think do a better job of presenting the history of the radical Islamic ideology. Ghost Wars is one. His does not discuss the failure of Arab nationalism. I'll get into that at some point, but its time to PT.
Last thing: Reich could have used some better essays by some of those authors, particularly Post and Peg Hermann.
__________________
They only the victory win
Who have fought the good fight and have vanquished the demon that tempts us within;
Who have held to their faith unseduced by the prize that the world holds on high;
Who have dared for a high cause to suffer, resist, fight—if need be, to die.
Last edited by Jimbo; 08-11-2004 at 14:03.
|
|
Jimbo is offline
|
|
|
08-11-2004, 14:24
|
#21
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
|
I am basing my understanding of Islamic terrorism from what I have read on here (mostly posts by you and the QPs), some pre-9/11 books, and what I hear on tv by people like Bill Cowan.
Reich's book really has nothing to do with islamic terrorism per se. It is about the psychology of why people become or join terrorists. And is very limited. I have said that before.
You're misunderstanding about the social worker theory.
For years, liberals claimed that people joined terrorist groups or became terrorists because they didn't have anything and were frustrated by it. Basically they said poor people were terrorists and if we only gave them food and water wells, they would stop. Pure BS.
I'm not thinking top down recruitment, I'm thinking Amway.
The group dynamic usually goes both ways. Those that are out want to belong, and those that are in want their friends and family members to be with them. Instant cliques that provide warmth and protection from threats from within the group.
Heavily influenced by Marxism? Buying the ghosts of the old party line there brah?
I'll admit I need to research more.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
|
|
NousDefionsDoc is offline
|
|
|
08-11-2004, 14:31
|
#22
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Vermont
Posts: 3,093
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Jimbo
There is very little evidence of top down recruitment in AQ. Folks I know have used the recruitment chapter from HFCUI as a hypothesis for investigating this current issue and have not found more than a few incidents to back it up. Granted, they COULD get their act together and do some good recruitng, however that would leave tehm open to penetration and frankly, enough people want to join that they do not have to recruit all that much. From open sources, recruitment more accurately consists of facilitation of travel to a camp.
I
|
If I had hair, this thread would make it hurt. And why do you think that there is very little evidence of top down recruitment? Folks are going to be recruited at different levels with different vetting for different jobs. Those that are being recruited for AQ are going to be put thru sufficient vetting hoops to ensure that in fact they are who they say they are and can do that what it is for which they are being recruited. Foot soldiers who are needed for low level "fire and forget" jobs are going to be rounded up off the streets, runs through whatever tests need to be done, given what limited training they need, and sent off on their expendable way. I doubt if you are going to see any of the movement's leaders strapped down with explosives. There are several issues here. One is that in addition to the madrassas and mullahs are the tribal loyalties and affiliations. When that bond is broken and kids wander into the cities to find jobs they have lost all bonds that they had under the tribal leaders that controlled them. This becomes one of the centers of gravity for defeating islamic terrorists-do what is needed to allow the tribal leaders to maintain the bonds over those that would stray. The other center of gravity here, seems to be, the poplulation in general that have had their religion co-opted by the radical fundamentalists supported by the madrassas and mullahs. The effort here is to invalidate the brand of islam that is being spewed forth and revalidate the non-fundamental brand of islam. Just my opinion.
Jack Moroney
__________________
Wenn einer von uns fallen sollt, der Andere steht für zwei.
|
|
Jack Moroney (RIP) is offline
|
|
|
08-11-2004, 14:40
|
#23
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Solid
Thank you Jimbo!
NDD this is effectively a brief (very brief) overview of the book.
HTH,
Solid
|
How does this disprove anything I have said?
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
|
|
NousDefionsDoc is offline
|
|
|
08-11-2004, 16:22
|
#24
|
|
Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 995
|
NDD, that was just the skinny on Sageman's book. I'm not going to participate in this argument because I lack credentials to do so, but IMHO the only way it can progress is to agree upon several 'facts' which can then be interpreted differently by each argument. 'Facts' which I can think of off the top of my head are-
The recruiting methods
The religious upbringing of different elements in the movement
The geography of those in and recruited by the movement
The interpersonal links which allowed members to be recruited
The Koranique (textual) basis which the movement uses to support its claims
The history of AQ as a movement, and other Salafist Groups
The structure of AQ et al.
There are probably others, but my thoughts are that without agreeing on such a set of stated assumptions, this argument will not be able to progress because no one will be interpreting the same situations.
JMO, backing out as fast as possible,
Solid
|
|
Solid is offline
|
|
|
08-11-2004, 16:38
|
#25
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: OCONUS...again
Posts: 4,702
|
Good!
Quote:
Originally posted by Solid
There are probably others, but my thoughts are that without agreeing on such a set of stated assumptions, this argument will not be able to progress because no one will be interpreting the same situations.
JMO, backing out as fast as possible,
Solid
|
Jimbo should follow your lead also!
Which one of you two have "operational experience" on the ground?
I'm tired of all of you guys "theories" that have never been tested in a combat AO! You sit behind your "books, lectures, papers and etc."
Get on the ground and put them to the test against REALITY! You fuckers would loose every GODDAMN time!
__________________
“It is better to have sheep led by a lion than lions led by a sheep.”
-DE OPPRESSO LIBER-
|
|
Guy is offline
|
|
|
08-11-2004, 16:39
|
#26
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
|
Solid, that was more for Jimbo.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
|
|
NousDefionsDoc is offline
|
|
|
08-11-2004, 16:49
|
#27
|
|
Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 995
|
Guy,
No disputing that, it's why I went for the 'agreed set of assumptions' argument. What I've learnt from my reading might drastically differ from what you know on the ground, making discussion difficult.
Solid
|
|
Solid is offline
|
|
|
08-11-2004, 16:50
|
#28
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: OCONUS...again
Posts: 4,702
|
Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
More for Jimbo.
|
DO NOT EVEN GET ME STARTED!
I've been on the ground while they were trying to institute that "educational" bullshit! As soon as the "shit, hit the fan," they were looking to us to get the "hell out of dodge"!
__________________
“It is better to have sheep led by a lion than lions led by a sheep.”
-DE OPPRESSO LIBER-
|
|
Guy is offline
|
|
|
08-11-2004, 16:52
|
#29
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
|
Re: Good!
Quote:
Originally posted by Guy
Jimbo should follow your lead also!
Which one of you two have "operational experience" on the ground?
I'm tired of all of you guys "theories" that have never been tested in a combat AO! You sit behind your "books, lectures, papers and etc."
Get on the ground and put them to the test against REALITY! You fuckers would loose every GODDAMN time!
|
There you go again, interjecting reality into a perfectly good theory argument. 
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
|
|
NousDefionsDoc is offline
|
|
|
08-11-2004, 16:55
|
#30
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central TX
Posts: 1,390
|
LMMFAO!!!
Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
There you go again, interjecting reality into a perfectly good theory argument.
|
Now That's Funny
OK, OK, I'm leaving...... 
|
|
Air.177 is offline
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 22:30.
|
|
|
Linear Mode
