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Old 06-19-2004, 09:17   #16
The Reaper
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I dare say that the Germans thought the same of themselves in 1933.

There is much to be feared from an efficient propoganda machine like the major networks.

You don't believe that, look at how firearms owners and Christians, to name but two are reviled in the media. It has had the effect of making a t-shirt with a gun on it a disciplinary violation.

I am familiar with Saudi culture, have Saudi friends, and sponsored Saudis at schools before. I daresay I understand them reasonably well, for a Westerner.

This entire anti-Christian, anti-Jew, anti-Western attitude is a violation of Mohammed's teachings, and Wahabbism/Jihadism has been supported or ignored by the moderates in the Moslem world for far too long.

The Saudis have been looking the other way and ignoring the problems with terrorists in their country in a bargain with the Devil, and now they are paying for it.

Most recently, in the attack on the housing complex where they singled out only non-Muslims, the Saudi security forces let the terrorists go, and the local media downplayed the significance of it, since the victims were not Moslem. How does this play with "In Saudi culture, killing an invited guest in one's house (in this case country) is a serious insult to be met with death."

Didn't look like it to me.

In response to your analogy, I don't see Americans hiding kidnappers and killers in their midst in the name of Jesus to the point where 1200 people have to have their doors kicked in.

Far more than 1200 doors are kicked in every day in this country searching for largely victimless criminals. Does that disturb you?

No monopoly on morality here. I am sure that the kidnapping and murder of a Saudi guest here would merit the same response. The kidnapping and killing of a group of Moslems in the U.S. would cause far more consternation and outrage in this country and abroad than the murder of the same number of Christians. We even passed laws to provide special protections to people who are minorities. Good grief, every swinging Richard up to and including the President had to apologize publicly for humiliating a few prisoners in Iraq. Where is the Crown Prince apologizing to us for this treatment of a guest of his?

In response to your analogy, I don't see Americans hiding kidnappers and killers in their midst in the name of Jesus to the point where 1200 people have to have their doors kicked in.

No, Sir, what I expect is evenhandedness and fairness in the coverage and reporting of these events, for the American people to recognize who their friends are and what has been done to us by evil SOBs in the name of a religion, and for those foreign leaders who would be our friends to act swiftly and decisively to treat the killing of an American IAW Islamic law and as a friend should react to the killing of a guest.

We did not bow down to the British press gangs, not the Barbary pirates before. I see no reason to try to appease those who would spill our blood today either. I choose to die on my feet, rather than live on my knees.

Refer to the pictures at the link (or 9/11 pics, or Daniel Pearl, or Nicholas Berg) if you are confused as to who the bad guys in this war are.

Examples of your alliances and pacts allegation?

TR
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Old 06-20-2004, 19:01   #17
ghuinness
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Heard this on the radio this afternoon.
Saudi police helped AQ and the kidnapping of Paul Johnson:

First document I could find: link
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Old 06-20-2004, 19:21   #18
ccrn
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Another Westerner beheaded

..but not being discussed in the media for some reason..


http://www.iht.com/articles/524747.html
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Old 06-20-2004, 19:25   #19
QRQ 30
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Quote:
Originally posted by ghuinness
Heard this on the radio this afternoon.
Saudi police helped AQ and the kidnapping of Paul Johnson:

First document I could find: link
U'm not going to say yae or nay. You are going to hear all kinds of crap for a while. Someone will probably say Bush arranged it to shock america into stronger action.

This is just the kind of sataement I would release if I were an AQ leader. "We are in paetnership with the Saudi".

Just look at the source, an AQ spokesman. Why wasn't it divulged that Johnson was kidnapped at a Saudi checkpoint when it happened!!

Quote:
An al Qaeda website said supporters within the service supplied the group with police uniforms and
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Old 06-21-2004, 00:45   #20
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Does anybody else find it rather convenient that they were able to find the killers right after he was killed? I am sick of this half hearted efforts and poor apologies on the part of the Saudi's. What has happened to "you are with us or with the terrorists."? I think it is fairly clear which side a large percentage of Saudi's are on. At least enough to make a difference. And that is what we need to go after. We don't need the half and half treatment. Let them decide which side they are on and then get on with it.
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Old 06-21-2004, 19:26   #21
ghuinness
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Quote:
Originally posted by QRQ 30
U'm not going to say yae or nay. You are going to hear all kinds of crap for a while. Someone will probably say Bush arranged it to shock america into stronger action.

This is just the kind of sataement I would release if I were an AQ leader. "We are in paetnership with the Saudi".

Just look at the source, an AQ spokesman. Why wasn't it divulged that Johnson was kidnapped at a Saudi checkpoint when it happened!!
The claim may appear ridiculous but I suspect there is probably some truth to the story. I would not be surprised to learn there are AQ sympathisers within the Saudi Gov't.

With respect to the lack of information about how Paul Johnson was captured, there was plenty of information about the other murders the same day, at least in Stratfor (Jun 14).

The information provided, surrounding the circumstances of Kenneth Scroggs murder, suggest to me some degree of complicity with the Saudi Police and their "perceived inability or unwillingness to crack down on Islamist militants".

my .02
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Old 06-21-2004, 20:02   #22
QRQ 30
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First, ask who stands to gain from such a claim. IMHO the AQ whose goal is to create further mistrust between us and other Arab countries.

What was the source of the claim? The same people who stand to gain.

As for weapons, is there one person amongst us who served on AD who hasn't known of incidents of weapons missing from the arms room or NG/AR armory? When I was in SFTG they found a sub-machine gun in a student's wall locker.

Uniforms? Get serious. They are available everywhewre.

Now suppose it did happen as the AQ said. Dows this mean that the entire Saudi Security Force has been infiltrated? Has our army become completly corrupt? Look at the incidents at Gitmo.
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Old 06-21-2004, 21:15   #23
ghuinness
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Quote:
Originally posted by QRQ 30
First, ask who stands to gain from such a claim. IMHO the AQ whose goal is to create further mistrust between us and other Arab countries.

What was the source of the claim? The same people who stand to gain.
Everyone is engaged in propaganda.

If the Saudi Gov't makes some "claim", does that automatically give it more credibility? Not for me. I weigh the plausibility of the information vs other data and derive a conclusion. I don't eliminate all information automatically based on source (with the exception of the New York Times, but even they have their moments.....rare...). Are the Saudi denials of AQ infiltration any more valid? I don't think so.

Quote:
Originally posted by QRQ 30

As for weapons, is there one person amongst us who served on AD who hasn't known of incidents of weapons missing from the arms room or NG/AR armory? When I was in SFTG they found a sub-machine gun in a student's wall locker.

Uniforms? Get serious. They are available everywhewre.
Pertained to more than uniforms. I could be mistaken, but AFAIK, obtaining uniforms and vehicles in Saudi Arabia is nothing like the West.

Quote:
Originally posted by QRQ 30


Now suppose it did happen as the AQ said. Dows this mean that the entire Saudi Security Force has been infiltrated? Has our army become completly corrupt? Look at the incidents at Gitmo.
The article doesn't state "complete inflitration"; I don't see the correlation.

Respectfully.
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