Kimber's response to malfunctions

[APLP]

IMHO, with the introduction of reliable, high capacity, lightweight, ergonomic, lower cost, polymer framed handguns, the traditional 1911 products will increasingly lag in the marketplace.

[rubberneck]

Originally Posted by APLP

IMHO, with the introduction of reliable, high capacity, lightweight, ergonomic, lower cost, polymer framed handguns, the traditional 1911 products will increasingly lag in the marketplace.

Reliable, high capacity, lightweight, ergonomic, low cost, ploymer handguns have been around for 20+ years. Ruger makes them, Sig makes them, H&K makes them, Springfield makes them, CZ makes them, S&W makes them and of course Glock makes them. Most of those companies have offered a cheap and reliable polymer framed hand guns for at least 7 years now, if not longer, and the 1911 market is still as hot as it has ever been.

[incommin]

Which semi auto pistol frame has won more titles than any other??????

I think it is the 1911........


Jim

[HOLLiS]

My thoughts are pretty simple on this. For the QP's they know what they need and why, failure to function in a firearm or any piece of equipment is not a option for them.

For me, and with most shooters, the targets we engage do not shoot back. A failure may be frustrating but not deadly. Also for many shooters, there are movies that "instill" in them what what want to look like, what they want to shoot, and it is all a harmless game generally that keep a lot of people employed.

[kgoerz]

Well if it's the magazines like in my situation, one of the mags came with the pistol. Thats unacceptable of course. But it's not the mags. I am deployed now and will admit of the three types of mags I have at home I cant say if one is a Wilson. I will take mine to Shooters Pawn as suggested by someone on here. I worked close with Shooters Pawn when I was at SFAUC and they are stand up guys. Yes the Kimber not chambering a round when the mags are on their last couple of rounds is a problem but it is the only problem that can be fixed I am sure fairly easily. I am a firm believer in modern technology and do own said modern .45 Cal pistols. Like stated above weapons manufactured, especially Pistols machined to an extremely tight tolerance are going to have problems out of the box. Drop a few grains of sand in a competition race gun and see what happens. If all else fails there is always the stick with a nail on the end of it..........

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

My thoughts are pretty simple on this. For the QP's they know what they need and why, failure to function in a firearm or any piece of equipment is not a option for them. For me, and with most shooters, the targets we engage do not shoot back. A failure may be frustrating but not deadly. Also for many shooters, there are movies that "instill" in them what what want to look like, what they want to shoot, and it is all a harmless game generally that keep a lot of people employed.

Hollis:

True except that the best competitive shooters are looking at their next year's income in almost any National title. I think they are far more demanding of absolute perfection in mechanical performance than the military as a whole and this probably includes its share of SF guys.

Now before everyone gets in an uproar, most competitive shooters who are serious will have their rifles or pistols totally rebuilt, mostly based on round count which probably equates to twice a year. Also, they won't accept anything other than perfect function and mechanical accuracy.

The Army would do well to follow this example of round count and complete rebuild, instead of waiting for a part to break and replacing only that part. The problem is getting the guys to record the round count. Even with SF guys. Also, there is a weird acceptance in the Army of weapons that aren't perfectly reliable or whose accuracy is lousy. I know why such an attitude exists but it still bothers me.

I have never been impressed with the reliability of issued rifles, carbines, or pistols and as far as I know, guys aren't allowed to bring their own blasters to war. I do know that SFGs and Ranger Battalions are authorized civilian armorers who can do depot level maintenance but take my word for it, they are kept on a very tight leash when it comes to making adjustments to weapons or weapons parts. Too bad because most of these civilian armorers can turn issued weapons into extremely reliable and precise weapons.

Gene

[TF Kilo]

I'll stick with TS' on this one, although my experience with 1911's isn't nearly in depth as his, they just don't fit.

Sometimes you have to pay to play. Is your personal safety worth the lower price?

[APLP]

Originally Posted by rubberneck

Reliable, high capacity, lightweight, ergonomic, low cost, ploymer handguns have been around for 20+ years. Ruger makes them, Sig makes them, H&K makes them, Springfield makes them, CZ makes them, S&W makes them and of course Glock makes them. Most of those companies have offered a cheap and reliable polymer framed hand guns for at least 7 years now, if not longer, and the 1911 market is still as hot as it has ever been.

It would be interesting to know the actual numbers. Very few L/E departments issue or authorize single stack 1911's, even smaller numbers for high capacity .45acp 1911's. I don't know of any departments that issue 9mm, 357Sig, .40 cal, or 10mm 1911's. I have never seen a cop carry any 1911 as a BUG.

I don't think public indoor ranges rent or sell more 1911's than Glock, Sig, HK, SW, or XD handguns. I bet just the XD .45acp sales are rapidly outpacing $1000.00 plus 1911's... half the price, twice the capacity, softer recoil for the wife or kids, lighter weight, same grip size, and pretty much goes bang every time out of the box.

I never thought I would say it but, if I had could only have one handgun, it would not be a 1911.

[Leozinho]

Originally Posted by APLP

I bet just the XD .45acp sales are rapidly outpacing $1000.00 plus 1911's... .

Speaking of price, now that STI has the Spartan below $600 and Taurus has a loaded 1911 at less than $500, Kimbers look even less attractive.

[FearTheCats]

Team Sergeant:

You do know that SIG stands for "Sure Isn't Glock."

[snatching up laptop, running away at Mach 4, diving in trench, resuming typing]

No, just kidding, SIGs are great, and if they put a thumb safety on their DAK 220 or if the firearms instructor will sign off on the single-action 220, I might even consider retiring my 1911.

kgoerz:

That was moi who suggested Shooters Pawn. And when you ask Greg how much, and he says "oh, don't worry about it," make him take your money!!! I think I have succeeded in paying him a total of $5.00 for fixing my 1911s and my match AR. One of these days I'll get even with him!

APLP:

It's true that few departments authorize, and fewer departments issue, 1911s for on-duty open carry. But mine is one of them. Everybody says "liability" but I don't see how. If I ever get asked in court why I carry a 1911, then I'll follow the advice of constitutional scholars in the Bronx: "yiz gotta ah-TIC-ya-late." You can do about anything so long as you can articulate the reason for doing so.

My reasons are that (1) I can hit with the first shot and every shot because of the 1911's trigger design, thus reducing the chance of "airballs" hitting innocent persons, and this is the same reason the FBI HRT carries 1911s, and (2) the manual safety enables me to cover a subject with the safety on, providing protection against negligent discharge while being ready to fire almost instantly, and also the safety will slow down or prevent a criminal from making it fire if they disarm me in a fight. Last year one of my brother deputies had his SIG 220 taken away by "Bonnie" while he was handcuffing "Clyde" and the only reason why he is still with us is that they did not totally feel like killing him right then. Mas Ayoob is not perfect but I get a lot from his work, and he says no officer has ever been killed with his own 1911.

My reasons against carrying a DA/SA pistol are (1) after you fire the first shot from a "safe" DA pull, you are now running around with a cocked gun in your hand--just like a 1911--except you're still thinking that it's a "safe" gun, and (2) it's very possible to forget to decock before holstering under stress, whereas if I forget to wipe the 1911 safety back on before holstering, it still has the grip safety and the Safariland SLS rotating hood blocking the hammer. There's no free lunch in firearms design.

Kimber:

Many autopistols need some break-in. I got a Walther P5 and it jammed twice per magazine for 50 rounds, but since then it's eaten anything. But most shooters don't know that. Why don't YOU do the break-in!?

After you do that, then show me how you can make a 1911 malfunction by squirting too much oil in the RIGHT PLACES, such as slide rails. I think the "excessive lubrication" problem is people lubricating the wrong places, such as the firing pin channel. Since somebody has already dropped the name of Vickers, he told our carbine class last year that "excessive lubrication" is a myth, unless you're using the wrong lube for the environment, and that someday he's just going to throw a gun in a tub of oil, drain off the excess, and show that it works fine.

Everybody:

When you take your gun to UPS for shipping and they ask you what's in the package, answer "machine parts." Show me where that's illegal.

[vsvo]

Originally Posted by FearTheCats

When you take your gun to UPS for shipping and they ask you what's in the package, answer "machine parts." Show me where that's illegal.

A guy to whom I traded a pistol told me he did this all the time, and shipped ground. I believe the statute states you have to declare only if you are shipping to someone other than a licensed manufacturer, importer, dealer, or collector. So it's not illegal.

However, it is a violation of UPS company policy. Thus, if the box gets damaged or lost during its journey in the brown truck UPS can deny the insurance claim, based on the Terms and Conditions of Service.

Handguns . . . will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air Services . . .

p. 5

UPS shall not be liable or responsible for the loss of or damage to any package containing articles that shippers are prohibited from shipping, that UPS does not or is not authorized to accept for transportation, that UPS states that it will not accept, or that UPS has a right to refuse.

p. 40

[APLP]

Originally Posted by FearTheCats

APLP:

It's true that few departments authorize, and fewer departments issue, 1911s for on-duty open carry. But mine is one of them. Everybody says "liability" but I don't see how. If I ever get asked in court why I carry a 1911, then I'll follow the advice of constitutional scholars in the Bronx: "yiz gotta ah-TIC-ya-late." You can do about anything so long as you can articulate the reason for doing so.

Lot's of rationales to go around, fact is, right wrong or indifferent, most all departments think the liability is higher with the "1911 single action trigger", no sweat for me one way or the other.

My reasons are that (1) I can hit with the first shot and every shot because of the 1911's trigger design, thus reducing the chance of "airballs" hitting innocent persons, and this is the same reason the FBI HRT carries 1911s, and (2) the manual safety enables me to cover a subject with the safety on, providing protection against negligent discharge while being ready to fire almost instantly, and also the safety will slow down or prevent a criminal from making it fire if they disarm me in a fight. Last year one of my brother deputies had his SIG 220 taken away by "Bonnie" while he was handcuffing "Clyde" and the only reason why he is still with us is that they did not totally feel like killing him right then. Mas Ayoob is not perfect but I get a lot from his work, and he says no officer has ever been killed with his own 1911.

Lots of assumptions in the above, maybe yes to some, maybe no to others, no sweat for me one way or the other. I don't know too many folks who carry guns for a living who would make the claim that the specific duty handgun they carry guarantee’s them the ability to hit the target with the "first and every shot"... I would also be hesitant to compare my ability to put rounds on target with the small number of FBI or military special ops folks who do carry the 1911for a living. Unless you train and operate the way they do, you would most assuredly lose your challenge in court.

My reasons against carrying a DA/SA pistol are (1) after you fire the first shot from a "safe" DA pull, you are now running around with a cocked gun in your hand--just like a 1911--except you're still thinking that it's a "safe" gun, and (2) it's very possible to forget to decock before holstering under stress, whereas if I forget to wipe the 1911 safety back on before holstering, it still has the grip safety and the Safariland SLS rotating hood blocking the hammer. There's no free lunch in firearms design.

At this point with respect to your above, I have to say you don't know what you are talking about. You should not assume what folks know and don't know here on PS or any other forum where folks shoot bad guys for a living.

Kimber:

Many autopistols need some break-in. I got a Walther P5 and it jammed twice per magazine for 50 rounds, but since then it's eaten anything. But most shooters don't know that. Why don't YOU do the break-in!?

I am nobody here on PS, but have more rounds through 1911's than you could count. I am not impressed with your challenge.

After you do that, then show me how you can make a 1911 malfunction by squirting too much oil in the RIGHT PLACES, such as slide rails. I think the "excessive lubrication" problem is people lubricating the wrong places, such as the firing pin channel. Since somebody has already dropped the name of Vickers, he told our carbine class last year that "excessive lubrication" is a myth, unless you're using the wrong lube for the environment, and that someday he's just going to throw a gun in a tub of oil, drain off the excess, and show that it works fine.

I apologize for my lack of tact and grasp of the English language from this former Marine to the professional soldiers forum, but you sir are simply a dumb ass.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by APLP

I apologize for my lack of tact and grasp of the English language from this former Marine to the professional soldiers forum, but you sir are simply a dumb ass.

LOL

Fearthecats,

He's right, your arguments don't hold water. They are simply opinion of which I don't think you've enough experience to comment on.

The reason the FBI HRT carries 1911's has nothing to do with "hitting on the first round". It does however have every thing to do with certain USASOC units carrying 1911's.

You don't know APLP, I do. I'd venture to say he's been shooting .45 longer then you've been breathing oxygen. He's probably gained a little experience along the way also.

Tell me, is your knowledge of FBI HRT first hand or are you just spouting "hearsay"?

Defend your 1911 if you feel you must but leave out rumor and hearsay. I don't care what you read in some "tactical shooting " magazine either, most of those are written by self made "experts".

Team Sergeant

[82ndtrooper]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

LOL

Fearthecats,

He's right, your arguments don't hold water. They are simply opinion of which I don't think you've enough experience to comment on.

The reason the FBI HRT carries 1911's has nothing to do with "hitting on the first round". It does however have every thing to do with certain USASOC units carrying 1911's.

You don't know APLP, I do. I'd venture to say he's been shooting .45 longer then you've been breathing oxygen. He's probably gained a little experience along the way also.

Tell me, is your knowledge of FBI HRT first hand or are you just spouting "hearsay"?

Defend your 1911 if you feel you must but leave out rumor and hearsay. I don't care what you read in some "tactical shooting " magazine either, most of those are written by self made "experts".

Team Sergeant

Agree !! Although I'm a fan of the 1911 platform, it's not necessarily my first pic if I had to carry a sidearm 12 hrs a day. 1911 fans often cite the need to engage the safety prior to reholstering the sidearm, but at the same time they are dubiously transfixed by the Glock !! Hmmmmmmm................a sidearm that has no safety, externally speaking, to engage, and is arguably in single action mode, or "condition Zero" at all times that a round is chambered, even when reholstered. Hence the number of UD's that have been reported by carrying the Glock in "condition zero" at all times. I relize some Glock expert will try to tell me that it has three safety's, none of which are a decocker, or external firing pin blocker engagement. I just dont buy the "Trigger Thingy" as any real safety.

Many 1911 manufacturers have captilized on the "Special Ops" tags and titles. "HRT" "SRT" "TRP" GRP" "SF" and the list goes on. How many SIG P226's have been sold with the poster of the Navy SEAL emerging from the deep blue sea with the mantra "To hell and back reliability" ? I believe SIG even sold a "NAVY" designated model with an anchor etched on the frame. (Save your money) Just because LASWAT uses a Kimber 1911 isnt going to make me think it's the best possible choice for me. Personally I'll stick to 9mm Luger and an H&K USPf.

Personally I think 1911's lack mag capacity, leaving very little room for margin of error should the need arise to clear a building with the sidearm. Thank god I dont have to do it ! At least in the tactical sense, or law enforcment profession.

I've never fired my 1911's with the belief that single action is going to gaurantee that my first shot is going to be placed COM. That's why I alway's decock my USP prior to engaging any of my paper targets. I generally do not miss the DA shot COM, but then again, it's not under any induced stress like that of combat. As for that matter, I'm not even a believer that the .45 ACP cartridge is any better than using a hot 9mm Luger, especially the +p+ SXT or Corbon DPX Barnes. Both are JHP's so that argument may not hold water when having to use FMJ's.

I've been shooting .45 ACP for well over 20 +years, and most of the time, I'll take an H&K USP or the SIG P220 over the 1911 platform any day of the week.

Are department here locally actualy looked into some 1911's as their standard sidearm. Two of the men stated that they couldn't understand how you carry a gun with the hammer cocked with a safety on. Condition One seemed to be unsafe in their minds. These same two PD officers had been carrying Glocks for 4 years. Guess they never really understood what they had been carrying.

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by 82ndtrooper

Personally I think 1911's lack mag capacity, leaving very little room for margin of error should the need arise to clear a building with the sidearm. Thank god I dont have to do it ! At least in the tactical sense, or law enforcment profession.

I carry a 1911 on duty in as a Law Enforcement Professional. I don't feel under gunned.

Also anyone who clears a building by themselves and/or with only a pistol (I don't care what make, model, or caliber) is a fool in my opinion.

ETA: When I know I'm going on the offense I bring a long gun, if I think I need to go on the offense I bring a long gun. Basically the only time I don't bring a long gun is traffic stops or reports of late crimes.