Supplements

[DoctorDoom]

Originally posted by ChaoticVirtuoso
40g is not boat-load. And yes much of it is 'crapped' out, but what isnt? Your body never utilizes all the goodies you consume.

I guess I'm with Razor, it doesn't sound like there is any utility to the increased protein intake if you can't actually absorb it... and although it's true that we don't utilize all that we consume as a matter of course, consuming any nutrient over the MAXIMUM POSSIBLE metabolic processing rather than consuming enough to account for normal wastage are two different issues.

I am also confused as to how protein intake increases muscle endurance?

Then again, I'm a surgery runt, so what do I know...

[QRQ 30]

DAYEM!! The virtuoso truly sounds chaotic as well as being a walking commercial for GNC.

I'm not a medic but I have learned that under most circumstances the normal diet supplies sufficient vitamins and minerals and other $hit. The body doesn't store them up, it eliminates excess. So to speak, you are pissing your money down the drain. You may not believe it, but army rations were engineered to supply the necessary nutrients for the stated mission. That is a reason rations are doubled and tripled under certain circumstances such as the Arctic.

GRRRRW!!

[Surgicalcric]

CV:

Do a search and find out how many triathletes, bikers, long distance runners use protein during training.

Protein suppliments are for mass gains, not increasing muscule endurance during a specific exercise/task. If you have some scientific proof I, like a few others here, would love to see it.

[ChaoticVirtuoso]

Reaper, respectively you reply as if my current intake of suppliments is off the chart. As with anything concerning nutrition, too much of anything is not good. +40g of Protein on workout days will not adversely effect performance after the suppliment is not being taken. The only forseeable difference will be in muscle mass which will deteriorate in SFAS anyways. Performance will suffer over time of course, but in 24-days I do not see it as being any significant problem.

Deprivation of a daily multi-vitamin and added (ONLY +40g) protein will not harm me in such a way that I it should warrant great concern.

It should be noted that protein from a plant source (whey) is completely recommended over the comsumption of an animal source (meats).

Even at 0.6 - 0.8g per /lb. of body weight (which I think could be on the low end), I am still consuming 110-150g of Protein a day. +20-25% is not all that detrimental.

-CV

[ChaoticVirtuoso]

I am not here to provide scientific proof. Just wanted to share my experiences and what I use and do. I personally have experienced a good deal amount of improvement physically. I have no intent of being a body-builder and can only go on results. I use whey protein purely for the added amino-acid benefits for muscle recovery and building.

Ill stop replying as this is turning into a brush-fire =P

Ill leave it with stats and results. Take or leave... Either way, anyone looking to take suppliments should first do research.

Height: 5'10
Weight: 185
Sex: Male
Age: 22

Suppliments Used---
GNC Pro Protein: 40g workout days/18g daily otherwise
Centrum Silver: 1-tablet daily (Aye the one for old people believe it or not =P)

Results:---
APFT before Protein, Multi-Vitamin Suppliment, Diet: 260's (Steadily increased from 230 at approximitly 5-8 point increase per month of steady workout program.)

APFT after Protein, Multi-Vitamin SUppliment, Diet: 320 (Increase from 260's at approximitly 9-12 point increase per month of the same steady workout program.)

Workout Program?---
I could post a few pages on this, but I go for reps and sets over increased weight. I'm into the hindu squats and push-ups. And I focus more on doing reps slowly and correctly rather than muscling my way through. Off-Days consist of running. Of course every morning we as well have PT which is in addition to my personal program.

-CV

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Great debate comrades...

[DoctorDoom]

Originally posted by ChaoticVirtuoso
It should be noted that protein from a plant source (whey) is completely recommended over the comsumption of an animal source (meats).

Even at 0.6 - 0.8g per /lb. of body weight (which I think could be on the low end), I am still consuming 110-150g of Protein a day. +20-25% is not all that detrimental.

-CV

CV, I don't mean to come across as jumping on you, I will be the first to admit I know very little about protein supplementation and the like in the context of demanding physical training. I'm pretty old school that way, just pound regular food and drink water. Plus my workouts just aren't that extreme. So bear with me and my questions.

Protein is protein right? So other than eating low fat non-red meats, why is whey protein considered better than meat protein? Is it more protein per unit weight? per kcal? biologically it wouldn't seem to make a difference.

Are you taking 40gms of protein per day or 40gms of extra protein per day? I read you as taking the whey proteins in addition to dietary protein. Even if you were taking 50% more than metabolic maximums, I don't think it would necessarily be detrimental, but it would mean a significant monetary expenditure on whey protein that seems unnecessary.

Thanks.

*Edited for typos.

[ChaoticVirtuoso]

I take 40g of protein in addition to my current diet. The type of protein I take is from Whey. The only advantage of taking the Whey suppliment is concentration of the protein without the added deficiencies of eating more meats. I could get 40g from a food source however I don't necessarily want to get everything else that comes from it.

Whey protein is easier to digest and contains higher levels of amino-acids (22 in total I believe) all without the calories and toxins of animal protein foods.

Yes, there are plenty of ways to increase protein from eating naturally from low-fat, non-red meats. Chicken and Fish are excellent choices.


EDIT: The proteins are wasted if you do not give you body a chance to use them. You have to have a good workout program to go by in order to maximize the effectiveness of the added suppliment.

EDIT x2: Fellas, I'm in the field and currently on a shower-run. I would love to continue this convo, but may not get to for another week. I will be coming out of the field 13MAY04 and in the mean-time will try to hook-up with the TacSAT fellas and get a slot for internet connection (its good to be commo =P). Thanks for the debate, everyone has good points.

-CV

[Team Sergeant]

CV,

Your medical education or lack there of is showing. I would advise you not to give advice to anyone concerning their training program at least until you are successful in your current endeavor, or possess the proper medical credentials to substantiate your claims with medical facts.

In simple terms, your opinion in regards to the above posts carries very little weight.

If and when you successfully complete Special Forces training I/we would be happy to hear your opinion concerning your “train up.�

Good luck.

Team Sergeant

[ChaoticVirtuoso]

Roger, Out.

My funny thing with this is, 40g of protein would not suffice a bodybuilder, 40g of protein suffices a light workout program.

A bodybuilder on HUGE gains is eating 1.5g of protein per lb of his body weight, and 40g of protein, unless you're sub 20lbs, is far to light for what you should be referring to "bodybuilder" status.

I am a active bodybuilder and I take in a LOT of protein and 2gallons of water a day.

Looks like you've been reading fad diets and how you think they work.

Sorry to tread onto the SF territory, but, I am also training for SFAS and 40g of protein, id lose to much damn muscle mass when I cardio, as I can bet you do as well.

High Reps, Lower Weight, or Low Reps, Lots of Sets, High Weight, either way, your low protein intake is killing you, whether you know it or not.

I wont even rant on supplements, personally ...you need to know what to take, how to take it, what cycles it, and in what dosage to be a real supplement wiz, which, from the post above, and this is me being nice, you need to do some research on the FDA standards of testing for potency and ingredients for what you think your taking.

99% of the time, a multi-vitamin will not cut it, unless its FDA approved for the ingredients it SAYS it has, and not what the BOTTLE says.

Any other questions as to what you wanna beleive you know on supplements and protein intake can be forwarded to me via PM.

Deception Out

Edit : Also, on a SF type of workout with heavy cardio and the like, 0.5 - 0.8g of protein per lb is not gonna be enough to supplement your workout, you WILL lose muscle mass, and go into a spiral, just a FYI.

[QRQ 30]

I thjought this was over but: The human body accustoms itself to its diet. Not speaking of addiction or dependency but what happens if you are deployed and youe supply of magic potients is suddenly cut off?

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by Deception
Any other questions as to what you wanna beleive you know on supplements and protein intake can be forwarded to me via PM.

Deception Out

Edit : Also, on a SF type of workout with heavy cardio and the like, 0.5 - 0.8g of protein per lb is not gonna be enough to supplement your workout, you WILL lose muscle mass, and go into a spiral, just a FYI.

Deception:

If you make it to Camp Mackall, you are going to be smoked, you know that?

What will happen to you after Basic, AIT, Airborne, SOPC I, SFAS, SOPC II, PLDC/BNCOC, and Phase II (six months or so) before you get to visit a gym regularly, or have access to your supplements again?

I would recommend that you guys work on endurance, cardio, and the few specialty events we have discussed, while eating a normal diet with few if any supplements.

QRQ, I can tell you what happens when someone is on steroids too long, and it isn't pretty.

TR

[NousDefionsDoc]

Need to eat pork - lots of pork. And biscuits. Big biscuits. No potatoes.

[Razor]

Deception, I'm in no way a dietician or medical doctor, so I can't argue the protein amounts that I posted from a first-hand point of view. However, I will say that I found those amounts in a published compilation of studies done on the dietary requirements of US Navy BUD/S students, done by a pair of Ph.D.-holding nutritionists who are also accomplished endurance athletes themselves. The studies provided me with scientific, well-researched data and results using several large study groups. What can you give me to endorse your position?

[NousDefionsDoc]

Deception has been deceived by Joe Weider.