Change the PT Program Thread

[x SF med]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Ruck up with 30% of your body weight and hump 12 miles in less than 3 hours? Very few will pass, and many men will fail as well.
TR

30% of body weight?? When I was on a Team, that would have given me about a 50# ruck. Mission load was a lot higher than that - closer to my body weight until we hit the ORP and could cache some gear.

I guess it would work for non CA troops though, except the fat boys would suffer intense pain, hehehehehe. Move, shoot, communicate - not always in that order.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by x SF med

30% of body weight?? When I was on a Team, that would have given me about a 50# ruck. Mission load was a lot higher than that - closer to my body weight until we hit the ORP and could cache some gear.

I guess it would work for non CA troops though, except the fat boys would suffer intense pain, hehehehehe. Move, shoot, communicate - not always in that order.

First, not everyone is troll-sized. I used to carry your full body weight in my ruck.

Second, we were speaking of a PT test that could be imposed Army-wide.

Finally, research has demonstrated the danger of injuries of training with excessive weight. You don't necessarily have to hurt yourself any more to train.

TR

[x SF med]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

First, not everyone is troll-sized. I used to carry your full body weight in my ruck.

Ouch!!! That's gonna leave a mark. Troll sized? Gee thanks, Sir, I'm of average height / average build. (and not for a troll). Hell, I used to carry my body weight in my ruck, or close to it. And not everybody is as overgrown as Sneaky.

My thoughts are that an Army wide PT test might be a thing of the past, at least after initial entry into the service. There could possibly be Branch specific PT tests, based on mission type. A desk jockey supply pogue needs to be in shape, but not in the same shape as an Infantry soldier.

We mostly trained lighter than Mission Requirements, but did go full load occasionally to keep the muscle memory and keep used to moving that way.

[Books]

FWIW, PT in the SFMS program is a bit hit and miss, but during the Trauma section, we had what the TACs called Med PT. Run here, splint an arm. Run there, give an IV. Buddy carry, KTD. You get the point. Since so much of the course is time constrained (hence the spotty organized PT - if you don't PT on your own, you're a fool) this combination of PT and training was great for getting us to practice medicine while heaving and sweating.

Oh, and I have a PT test tomorrow morning. . .

Books

[MatthewNC]

If anyone is interested, here is the USMC's concept paper on transforming their PT program. http://www.mcwl.usmc.mil/file_downlo...NAL_061120.pdf
Makes for an interesting read. The most notable parts is that they " are arguing that fitness should follow function—that combat fitness should be functional for combat. A preparation effort in which a program based on functional movements executed with representative intensity of combat should be most effective.

I believe that the framework will be based on a CrossFit (www.crossfit.com) model. Their views on the PFT and use of organic equipment instead of fancy Nautilus machines and ellipticals is a great move.

[Monsoon65]

Originally Posted by x SF med

A desk jockey supply pogue needs to be in shape, but not in the same shape as an Infantry soldier....

The AF finally got off it's collective ass and started a decent PT test that has running, pushups and situps. About 20 years behind the power curve, but it's a nice start.

The AF has always said that "you need to be fit for the fight". True, 99% of the AF isn't going to be in direct combat, but I'd love to see the PT test include some sort of "skills" test in BDUs. Just some simple stuff like a carry/drag scenario.

I tell the guys and gals in my section that's probably something that they'll have to face in an emergency. We have guys that are 6', 200+ jocks and women that are five foot nothing and a buck ten soaking wet. I ask them if they are prepared to move someone out of the line of fire and to a helicopter or cover. (I kid them that I always stack the crew deck during deployments so I'm flying with the munchkins or skinny dudes for that reason.)

[Surgicalcric]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

First, not everyone is troll-sized...

TR

Oh damn!!! Now thats gonna leave a mark...

Crip

[kgoerz]

Yes weight training doe's help with carrying the weight of a tactical vest, but after time your body just gets use to wearing it. I know when I start up work I notice the weight but after a week or so it is not even a factor. The real 1st Sgt from Band of Brothers came out to our Range for a demo and we asked what was the most difficult part of combat he said " The physical exhaustion part of it" He said after D-Day when they were back in England 10 to 15 mile runs and ruck's were common and no one bitched about it after being in Combat like they did before D-Day.

[Surgicalcric]

Originally Posted by Books

FWIW, PT in the SFMS program is a bit hit and miss, but during the Trauma section, we had what the TACs called Med PT...
Books

I surely hope to God you dont really consider Med-A PT real PT... The only thing it was good for was wasting my time in the morning when I could have been at the gym doing real PT on my own, as has been the case with any and all forms of organized PT since I have been in the Army.

Pushups, situps, and the 2-miler only measure an individuals ability to do 3 things. There are guys who can max the run but cant carry a ruck, guys who can do 80 PU's in 2 minutes but would be hard push themselves up from the prone wearing kit and guys who can do SU's til the sun sets but couldnt pull themselves over a wall or drag a buddy 50 meters...

As the good Colonel said, "the standardized APFT should be restricted to initial entry evaluations and the basic level requirement that says you are alive and can participate in the real PT programs at unit level." I dont believe there should be a standardized PT test, as standardized tests only test ones ability in a known range of exercises and dont test overall fitness.

just my .02 and well worth what you paid...

Crip

[incommin]

When I got to Vietnam I spent several days of physical activity....part of which was a timed ruck march uphill and downhill .......the nice little walk took place on an island in the middle of Camron Bay...... If you made it within a specific time you didn't have to repeat it..... I think it was a mile up and a mile back.

When I hit CCS a week or two later it took about three operations and I no longer felt the weight of the load I carried after the initial ten to twenty minutes of putting it all on...There were days when it was never taken off....even for sleep and rest.

Over the space of a military career..... we don't spend a lot of time in combat..... It is true that we need to train the way we fight..... but the body adapts very quickly....... the idea of organized physical training and a PT test is to try to maintain a minimum level of physical fitness..... Individuals in combat arms should maintain a higher level,,,,,,on their own, so that their bodies will adapt more quickly to the strains of combat requirements.....

I don't think there is a need to maintain the same fitness level that is required and necessary in combat during the 18 month to several years of peacetime training experienced in-between combat assignments. Over training can cause damage. Backs, knees, ankles, and feet will not last a lifetime if they are abused unnecessarily.

Jim

[Kyobanim]

Troll sized? Gee thanks, Sir, I'm of average height / average build.

Ahem, I agree with the average height part of that statement.

[x SF med]

Originally Posted by Kyobanim

Ahem, I agree with the average height part of that statement.

Bite me brother - said with all the love in the world - are you trying to imply that I am overweight? Oh, the pain!!! I was one of the thinner people at the show, if you remember correctly.....

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Jack Moroney

Even the armor folks back in the late 70s introduced a PT test that involved tasks associated with being a tanker that had nothing to do with any other functions in any other branches...

Sir, would those tasks include maintaining no greater than a 36" distance from the vehicle at all times, the ability to drive over rough terrain without spilling one's coffee from an open-top mug, always having an FMC heater, and the ability for four men to fully consume a 12-man tray ration twice a day for at least two weeks?

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Razor

Sir, would those tasks include maintaining no greater than a 36" distance from the vehicle at all times, the ability to drive over rough terrain without spilling one's coffee from an open-top mug, always having an FMC heater, and the ability for four men to fully consume a 12-man tray ration twice a day for at least two weeks?

Yup, and all the while wrapped comfortably inside 62 tons of homosexual steel

IIRC they had a track breaking timed task, ammo loading and hauling tasks, hefting fuel cans, and some other associated events. It was more akin to a team timed event sort of like military stakes-but then, as I said, they were tankers

[Ambush Master]

Originally Posted by incommin

When I got to Vietnam I spent several days of physical activity....part of which was a timed ruck march uphill and downhill .......the nice little walk took place on an island in the middle of Camron Bay...... If you made it within a specific time you didn't have to repeat it..... I think it was a mile up and a mile back.

It was Hon Tre Island in Nha Trang Bay. There's a luxury resort there now!!