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Old 01-08-2007, 14:00   #16
82ndtrooper
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[QUOTE=NousDefionsDoc]Tone -as I said, hard to read on the 'net. No big deal.
Shoot a lot of organic game through glass partially obscured by curtains while they are holding a hostage do ya?

That's one shot I dont want to take !! But, If I had to, I'd certainly not want an Armalite AR for the job. The M24 SWS or the H&K PSG with some awfully expensive glass and a beta blocker to keep my heart rate down. I'd prefer to just watch.

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Old 01-08-2007, 14:22   #17
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Fear The Cats

FEAR THE CATS,

Dont get me wrong, I understand that your maximizing the efficiency of the weapon systems platform available for a multitude of tasks. Tasks, that I do not wish to have to employ with my AR's. Should I ever have to if the SHTF, then I'd rely on my Triji ACOG 4x or the Aimpoint CompL 2. This is one event that I pray I personally never have to worry about.

By the way, nice choice of sidearms. The TRP 1911. I own the TRP "Operator" and it's the only 1911 that I have not had to break in or send back for further improvement machining. It's a down right "TAC DRIVER" Actually just las week the nice UPS girl provided me with a package from Surefire holding an X200 weapons light with pressure pad (Slimline activation switch) As a side note. Surefire has discontinued the sale and manufacturing of the Military and Nitrolon P series lights. Glad I have both with separate rail adapters for the USP and the Beretta FS.

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Old 01-08-2007, 15:55   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 82ndtrooper
With that distance, then an AR should be just fine. As for the use of the S&B, that's another question. Parallax and eye relief would be my first concern, even at 75 meters. In daylight, I'd want a 4x with 1/4 MOA and a rather large objective lens adjustable to varying distance. I'm relating this to hunting game, not any experience as a military or LEO sniper duty. The targets are both organic and moving none the less.

82nd:

NDD said that 75m is the AVERAGE distance, which means often the engagements are closer. (I've heard/read/imagined that the average distance is even less than 75m). I think Brian is going to tell us that many times he's really pulling perimeter security at rather close distances where he needs the wide FOV of a 1x scope. Other times he's further away and needs to the magnification. Your suggestion of a fixed power ACOG doesn't fit the bill.

Brian:

I heard you a few weeks back on the Matt Burkett podcast talking about Adopt a Sniper. For those that don't know, if I remember correctly Brian and his colleagues have sent more than a $1 million in donated gear to folks in the military overseas.

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Old 01-08-2007, 19:01   #19
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The average distance for an American LE sniper shot is 51.3 yards.

There have been longer (513 yds.) and shorter (5 yds.) ... both with 308s.

The 513 was this year and the numbers may fluctuate a little since the 51.3 yard number was arrived at.

NOTE: The 168 SMK did NOT exit on the 5 yard shot ... fascinating.

However, the old 75 yard, average cop sniper shot FBI stat ... is a myth.

The FBI does not, nor have they ever, kept statistics on sniper shots by law enforcement personnel. That old myth has been around for 30 years.

The American Sniper Association ( www.americansniper.org - different than www.AmericanSnipers.org ) - polled every LE agency in the US with over 50 personnel and a SWAT team. We went back as far as the agency kept records and followed up on every shoot we could locate, compiling emprical data. The 51.3 yard number came out of that survey, 14 states of which I personally conducted the interviews.

Just like the QPs here, the role of the sniper in law enforcement depends entirely upon the mission.

Look out your front door, across the street, at your neighbor's house.

That is where we work every day.

If some whacko comes running out the front door with his Raven Arms target model blazing at 51.3 yards ... a red dot is nice to have.

If that same whacko is holding a hostage in the front door, at 51.3 yards ... in the dark, with a pistol taped to his hand ... a crosshair is much better.

The number 7 Reticle in the Short Dot does both.

It has a fine vertical upper crosshair, and heavy lower/horizontal posts.

It also has a red dot in the center of the crosshair intersection with the turn of a turret.

The reticle is fine for both precision and CQB work.

The SPR reticle for the same optic was designed by QPs if I am not mistaken and more appropriate for the missions they undertake. I find that that reticle will fade and can be hard to discern in low light (when most of our stuff happens).

I find that the tube is almost just as fast as my Aimpont for across the bedroom distances if I have to dump the bolt gun and assist on an entry (which happens more than one would think).

(The glass is unbelievably clear and the poster on the newer Zenith version is correct as well).

Likewise, if my entry team is working a Columbine type scenario and there are other snipers deployed outside to cover same ... I will ditch the .308 and grab the AR. There are lots of 150 yard hallways in the high schools here and the entry crew likes having a true long rifleman cover their play ... (whether they will admit it openly or not is an entirely different matter).

Same sniper mission ... just an adaptation of tactics and deployment.

We are issued a short AR with a red dot, a 16 inch carbine with either a red dot or scope and a .308 bolt gun with big glass.

Pick the right tool for the job.

It has taken years for us to get to that point ... most LEOs don't have SOCOMs budget. We often have to buy what we need ourselves ... but I digress.

... The last three guys I have set up on have been at less than 20 yards.

Just the way it played out. No way in any of those instances to get the distance we would rather work from.

On the last one, I grabbed a good old 870 and did not feel undergunned.

The B/G was expected to come running out the door, guns blazing as previously described and a good old load of buckshot would have served him well had it played out that way.

The AI stayed in the Eberlestock Phantom pack at my feet.

Overpenetration with the .308 is a real issue when working around entire neighborhoods comprised of 75 year old, wood frame houses, with many cops and bystanders all over the area ... and sometimes ... the .223 is just better suited for the job.

The term COP is just fine by the way.

If a cop gets offended for being called a cop ... he is probably a sissy and taking himself waaay too seriously.

Thanks for the compliments otherwise.

My guys work hard. Very proud of our service people.

BK
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Last edited by brianksain; 01-08-2007 at 19:06.
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Old 01-08-2007, 19:12   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
What are you running it on?
Sorry NDD, overlooked your question. Apologies.

Currently on a Colt 6920 but may be on either a Larue or MSTN build after SHOT SHOW.

Sure like the look of the first Mod SPR ... thinking of having Wes at MSTN build the same only with a 16" bbl. Kind of an SPR carbine/Recce.

Handy as a hatchet I would think.

BK
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Old 01-08-2007, 19:30   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianksain
I find that the tube is almost just as fast as my Aimpont for across the bedroom distances....
BK
That's what I would expect.

Thanks for all the info Brian.

See you in a few days.

TS
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Old 01-08-2007, 21:10   #22
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Wow 82ndtrooper, glad you have a good result with the TRP too. After switching to Chip McCormick mags with Tripp Industries innards, I haven't had a single stoppage. Mine doesn't have a rail but my dept doesn't authorize sidearm weaponlights anyway.

I hope I don't wind up in any terrible situation either. I'm lucky to work in a county that's well-behaved most of the time, but people do straaange things now and then. Like anybody faced with the possibility of violence, I make plans according to what the enemy CAN do, not just what he'll PROBABLY do. ACOGs and Aimpoints are wonderful and will serve well in MOST any situation, and highpower shooters prove every weekend that iron sights still work as well as they ever did.

I went outside this afternoon and shot my patrol carbine for the first time in a month. At 100m from mag-supported prone (the squishy Magpuls are just the ticket to steady out your "monopod") it was easy to keep Sellier & Bellot M193 center mass, with the Short Dot on 1.1x with or without the dot turned on. In fact, WITH the dot, I had to aim a little higher after dropping a couple rounds below the 5-zone. Cranked up to 4x for some "headwork," the cheap rounds grouped right at 2" from 100m. Ten rounds Black Hills factory new Nosler 77s also grouped 2", with four rounds making one ragged hole and the others kind of like satellites in orbit around it. Any of them would have stopped the fight. I need to practice more often for sure, but 2" at 100m from a service barrel with service trigger is a good start.

We did in-service training on Rapid Deployment (school shooter) last year and our instructors make it clear that in the event of active shooters, it's A-OK to kill them. We do not contain; we go in. Unfortunately, we were briefed to only carry sidearms, even though our high schools have long halls and big gyms. Funny that our OPFOR player was allowed an AR with blanks!

Brian, what can you tell us about the 513-yard shot!? And I agree, the term COP is an honor.
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Old 01-09-2007, 07:46   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FearTheCats
Brian, what can you tell us about the 513-yard shot!?
Unfortunately, not much at the moment.

The shot is still pending Grand Jury review and to speak publicly on same would be unprofessional. There is some internet chatter on the incident but very little substance.

Typical standoff with some maniac shooting at the cops. State Trooper took a very long shot. No hostages present I don't think. Nuff said.

Heretofore, the longest tru LE sniper shot was taken by a pal with Pennsylvania State Police. Right over a hostage's ear at 185 yards. Very squared away sniper.

A group of DC Capital Police guys lit up a fool named Norman Mayer who was sitting in a van, threatening to blow up the Washington monument years ago.
Many shots were fired, some from over 400 yards but it was simply a fusilade of bullets from numerous folks.

Worked well by the way ... just not the typical one shot stop
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Old 01-09-2007, 13:11   #24
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BK,
You mentioned the overpenetration issue with the .308. Unlike the military that is restricted to which ammo to utilize (period) on a specific mission, the LeMas round may offer you a distinct advantage....PM APLP and he'll clue you in to 2 other urban/suburban agencies already testing/using for just this reason. May be nice to change ammo rather than weapon (mission specific of course)

ss

not trying to hijack this discussion to ammo......just an fyi
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Old 01-09-2007, 18:07   #25
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Brian, I've shot the Short Dot on 14.5 M4s, 16-inch recces, and an 18-inch go-fast gun that belongs to SFC Joe H. The two shorter carbines used the Larue SPR-E mount, but I can't remember what the mounts were on the 18. Joe put 45-degree add-on rails and a JP short range sight on the 18, so that when you tilt the rifle to the left you get a post and U-notch arrangement about where your left hand is holding the fore-end. When the rifle is straight up-and-down your close-range irons are at 2 o'clock.

Mark Larue will cut you a cop deal on the SPR-E at SHOT if you ask him nice.
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Old 01-16-2007, 11:36   #26
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Ran into TR and TS at SHOT along with Mr. Reeve and Mr. Harsey.

Great to see you guys again.

Mark Larue is a pal. Texas boy and all ...

Got him hooked up to attend the National Patrol Rifle Conference as a vendor.

Also did the same for QP Mark Kinsler of SOG Armory.

Maybe see you in Vegas next trip Sinister.

Best regards friends,

bk
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Old 01-16-2007, 15:21   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinister
I love the (MILSPEC) version of the Short-Dot with one exception: eye relief is critical (too close or too far and you get severe shadowing).

I've found the best mount for it is probably the Larue.

Dave

The shadowing is a problem on the 6x42 also..
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