Are we at war with Islam?

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by ghuinness in General Discussions:

THE WORLD SITUATION - A LETTER TO MY SONS was written by a retired attorney, to his sons, May 19, 2004.

Dear Tom, Kevin, Kirby and Ted,

As your father, I believe I owe it to you to share some thoughts on the present world situation. We have over the years discussed a lot of important things, like going to college, jobs and so forth. But this really takes precedence over any of those discussions. I hope this might give you a longer term perspective that fewer and fewer of my generation are left to speak to. To be sure you understand that this is not politically flavored, I will tell you that since Franklin D. Roosevelt, who led us through pre and WWII (1933 - 1945) up to and including our present President, I have without exception, supported our presidents on all matters of international conflict. This would include just naming a few in addition to President Roosevelt - WWII: President Truman - Korean War 1950; President Kennedy - Bay of Pigs (1961); President Kennedy - Vietnam (1961); [1] eight presidents (5 Republican & 4 Democrat) during the cold war (1945 - 1991); President Clinton's strikes on Bosnia (1995) and on Iraq (1998). [2] So be sure you read this as completely non-political or otherwise you will miss the point.

Our country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII). The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who realize what losing really means. First, let's examine a few basics:
1. When did the threat to us start? Many will say September 11th, 2001. The answer as far as the United States is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the following attacks on us: Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979; Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983; Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983; Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988; First New York World Trade Center attack 1993; Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996; Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998; Dar es Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998; Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000; New York World Trade Center 2001; Pentagon 2001. (Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 terrorist attacks worldwide). [3]

2. Why were we attacked? Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or their immediate predecessors, Presidents Ford or Carter.

4. Who were the attackers? In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims.

5. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%

6. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful? Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian), that made no difference. You either went along with the administration or you were eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for political reasons (including 7,000 Polish priests). (http://www.nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm). Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as the 6 million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over the world - German, Christian or any others. Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US, but kill all in the way - their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else.. [5] The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing - by their own pronouncements - killing all of us infidels. I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the choice was shut up or die?

6. So who are we at war with? There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than the Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting. So with that background, now to the two major questions:
1. Can we lose this war?
2. What does losing really mean?

If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions. We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the answer to the second question - What does losing mean? It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our business, like post Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can get. What losing really means is: We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks will not subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they want us dead, not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they would not have produced an increasing series of attacks against us over the past 18 years. The plan was clearly to terrorist attack us until we were neutered and submissive to them. We would of course have no future support from other nations for fear of reprisals and for the reason that they would see we are impotent and cannot help them.

[NousDefionsDoc]

They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It will be increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain hostage. It doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to withdraw its troops from Iraq. Spain did it because the Muslim terrorists bombed their train and told them to withdraw the troops. Anything else they want Spain to do, will be done. Spain is finished. The next will probably be France. Our one hope on France is that they might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. However, it may already be too late for France. France is already 20% Muslim and fading fast. See the attached article on the French condition by Tom Segel. [6]

If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life will all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal with us if they were threatened by the Muslims. If we can't stop the Muslims, how could anyone else? The Muslims fully know what is riding on this war and therefore are completely committed to winning at any cost. We better know it too and be likewise committed to winning at any cost.

Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple. Until we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put 100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to take that 100% effort to win. So, how can we lose the war? Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by imploding. That is, defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their purpose and really digging in and lending full support to the war effort. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. If we continue to be divided, there is no way that we can win.

Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the life and death seriousness of this situation.

President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation. Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously? This is war. For the duration we are going to have to give up some of the civil rights we have become accustomed to. We had better be prepared to lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly lose all of them permanently. And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of civil rights during WWII and immediately restored them after the victory and in fact added many more since then. Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him? No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our Political Correctness and all of our civil rights during this conflict and have a clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to war. Get them out of your head.

Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us lose. I hasten to add that this isn't because they are disloyal. It is because they just don't recognize what losing means. Nevertheless, that conduct gives the impression to the enemy that we are divided and weakening, it concerns our friends, and it does great damage to our cause.

Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war perhaps exemplifies best what I am saying. We have recently had an issue involving the treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war by a small group of our military police. These are the type prisoners who just a few months ago were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their hands, cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own people just for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein. And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed 400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the same type enemy fighters who recently were burning Americans and dragging their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq.

And still more recently the same type enemy that was and is providing videos to all news sources internationally, of the beheading of an American prisoner they held. Compare this with some of our press and politicians who for several days have thought and talked about nothing else but the "humiliating" of some Muslim prisoners - not burning them, not dragging their charred corpses through the streets, not beheading them, but "humiliating" them. Can this be for real? The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the Secretary of Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous results of losing this war, nothing can. To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this prisoner issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burned - totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. Neither we, nor any other country, can survive this internal strife. Again I say, this does not mean that some of our politicians or media people are disloyal. It simply means that they absolutely oblivious to the magnitude of the situation we are in and into which the Muslim terrorists have been pushing us for many years. Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels. That translates into all non-Muslims - not just in the United States, but throughout the world. We are the last bastion of defense.

We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant'. That charge is valid in at least one respect. We are arrogant in that we believe that we are so good, powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds of all those who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our back, we can defeat anything bad in the world. We can't. If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive, and no other free country in the World will survive if we are defeated. And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of the Press, equal rights for anyone - let alone everyone, equal status or any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way that contributes to the good of the World.

This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war or we will be equated in the history books to the self-inflicted fall of the Roman Empire. If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow history books to be written or read.

If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to increase the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach little by little on the established French traditions. The French will be fighting among themselves over what should or should not be done, which will continue to weaken them and keep them from any united resolve. Doesn't that sound eerily familiar?

Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away, politically correct piece by politically correct piece. And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown, worldwide, that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even to themselves, once they are in power. They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then start brutally killing each other over who will be the few who control the masses. Will we ever stop hearing from the politically correct, about the "peaceful Muslims"?

I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. I believe that after the election, the factions in our country will begin to focus on the critical situation we are in and will unite to save our country. It is your future we are talking about. Do whatever you can to preserve it.

Love,
Dad

Source for statistics in Par. 1 is http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html

The Institute of Islamic Information and Education. http://www.iiie.net/Intl/PopStats.html

There are 64 Muslim countries. This does not count countries like Spain that are controlled by the Muslim terrorists.

[The Reaper]

Concur completely.

As has already been stated, the best response to terrorist demands is to do the opposite thing.

If they want you out, double your force. If they want to be publicized, refuse to cover them or their stories. If they kidnap people, redouble your efforts to capture their leadership.

These are hard times coming, and they are going to call for drastic measures.

Frankly, I agree that we do not currently have the stomach for it. After they hit us a few more times, I think that we will. We are afraid to show the 9/11 videos on TV, but we let Michael Moore spew his filth and lies. I have a better idea. Maybe we should make a feature film about the terrorists, their supporters, their apologists in the US, and their actions, showing the consequences. I think your average American should see the other side for a change. 3,000 dead Americans, kids buried alive, people crusjhed and burned to death, leaping smouldering, hundreds of feet from burning buildings, having their throats slashed in the cabins, billions in damage, and we are still afraid to face the reality because it might offend people? Please America, wake up!

TR

[Solid]

TR-
I think we have a slight problem in that whereas the muslim world is more or less ethnically homogenous (well, one big split but still), whereas the US has many non-terrorist/sympathetic muslim communities that may be jeapordized if a film is made about terrorism.

Just a consideration, otherwise I agree completely.

Solid

[rwt_bkk]

WELL SAID NousDefionsDoc!
As I said earlier the proper question is: Is Islam at war with us? The answer is yes. Islam can probably be divided into four camps.
1. What we would call Radical Islam.
2. Those who quietly support their goals and give of their time and money to the cause.
3. Those who say or do nothing
4. Those who are opposed to Radical Islam.

Unfortunately I think about 70% are in groups 1,2 and 3. There is not only a war against us but against Islam as well. Make no mistake as the radicals attack us they gain in strength and sway over mainstream Islam. There was a time when a lot of Muslim governments used them as weapons of convenience just to tweak us. But now these same instruments are seeking to topple the governments that secretly supported them. And in doing that they are gaining more recruits not only against those who ruled in injustice but the supporters of those govenments (us). The Islamic governments of the world are only supporting us in the war on terror because the realization has finally come home that these people want there heads and will not be content until they accomplish a complete destruction of these regimes.

They have correctly read and played to our weaknesses. Can we close them in time? I pray that we will.

Keep it oiled and ready - it ain't over yet

[NousDefionsDoc]

I didn't say it, a lawyer did. ghuinness had already posted it in Gen Dis and I didn't see it.

[Sigi]

The McCarthy speech and the Letter from Dad were very informative, as was the post by rwt_bkk.

We need to change our thinking - fast. I don't see it happening in time. Very scary.

This is a fairly long article and over a year old. I first heard it last year. Asked NDD if it was okay to post.

Here is the link rather than adding the entire text: link

Excerpt:
After the consolidation phase of this war is complete, with the destruction of the Taliban and occupation and reform of Iraq, then we will go onto the offensive and begin to strike at the deeper core of the problem. Part of that will be to force reform on Saudi Arabia, through a combination of diplomacy, persuasion, subversion, propaganda and possibly even military force.

What this shows is just how deeply I disagree with many who oppose this war. I am forthrightly proposing what some might call cultural genocide. The existing Arab culture which is the source of this war is a total loss. It must be shattered, annihilated, leaving behind no more traces in the Arab lands than the Samurai left in Japan or the mounted knights left in Europe.

I am forthrightly stating that it will be necessary to destabilize the entire middle east, which puts me exactly counter to European foreign policy. No Band-Aid will do. It isn't possible to patch things up with diplomacy because the rot runs too deep. Diplomacy now would be treating the symptoms and not the true disease.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I was reading over this, its a really good thread. Very good points made all around.

[2VP]

From a northern perspective it doesn't appear that anyone anywhere is posing the result of losing. The general populace are generally a bunch of automatons and if the majority of the news agencies started doing stories on how their way of existing will be altered for the worse then I think the people would get on board for the long haul. The education of the masses about their enemy should be orchestrated without haste to the extent that draconian measures can be exacted on the enemy without little disapproval from the people. In the Untouchables Sean Connery said to the effect "they put 2 of your men in the hospital you put 2 of theirs in the morgue." I think serious consideration should be asked as to whether winning hearts and minds is even possible.

Originally posted by rwt_bkk
Islam can probably be divided into four camps.
1. What we would call Radical Islam.
2. Those who quietly support their goals and give of their time and money to the cause.
3. Those who say or do nothing
4. Those who are opposed to Radical Islam.

I think this is a pretty good breakdown, however, I'm not sure I agree with your numbers.

Groups 1 & 2 I think comprise about 20-30% of Islamic believers, with a high percentage of them located in the Middle-East.
Group 4 I think also comprises 20-30% of Islamic believers, with the high percentages located in non-Islamic countries.
Group 3 is the swing group, and makes up 50-70% of all Islamic believers, and I think a very large % of those in countries like Indonesia, Malaysia and Morocco.

[Solid]

Would you agree that groups 3 and 4 make declaring a war on Islam or any rhetoric which may be interpreted that way, as counter productive?

Solid

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by 2VP
From a northern perspective it doesn't appear that anyone anywhere is posing the result of losing. The general populace are generally a bunch of automatons and if the majority of the news agencies started doing stories on how their way of existing will be altered for the worse then I think the people would get on board for the long haul. The education of the masses about their enemy should be orchestrated without haste to the extent that draconian measures can be exacted on the enemy without little disapproval from the people. In the Untouchables Sean Connery said to the effect "they put 2 of your men in the hospital you put 2 of theirs in the morgue." I think serious consideration should be asked as to whether winning hearts and minds is even possible.

Good idea for a spin off I think. Good points.

[2VP]

I am humbled sir.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by Sigi
We need to change our thinking - fast. I don't see it happening in time. Very scary.

We’re not going to change our thinking, the terrorists will do that for us, but only after another catastrophic and horrific attack perpetrated against the people of the United States.

The attack is coming and I believe the terrorists will kill thousands, possibly tens of thousands, of Americans. It’s only a matter of time until one of these cowards figures out a way to accomplish this task on our soil, again.

Until then you can bet we will continue to tolerate islamic intolerance directed at the people of the United States from within our very borders.

As I’ve said before, this is a battle of ideologies and it will continue until one side is vanquished.

Team Sergeant
(Infidel)