Survive!

[The Reaper]

A#1, did you get a registration message?

Have you complied with the requirements yet?

I don't think so.

Do not offer further advice till you have followed instructions, and read the entire thread. Like my post at the top of page 12 of this thread.

Understand that as SF soldiers who have had extensive survival training and experience in the real world, we are somewhat reluctant to take advice from someone who is still under 20 years of age and who we know nothing about.

TR

[Pete S]

Here a good website I found: http://wildwoodsurvival.com/

Most of it is "old school" stuff coming from native american traditions i.e. what are the best plants to make cordage from, how to make snares and traps, field expedient shelters, how to make stone tools, etc.

[MoPro]

I know TR posted a note of caution for those posting that aren't SERE instructors or QPs but I feel confident in this posting (...have to acknowledge protocol).

In all 13 pages of this thread, I haven't seen anybody post on the fact that the word survival is, in-itself, an acronym. I was a camp counselor at Aviation Challenge in Huntsville and we even taught the campers this. I also taught survival when I was a Flight Commander in CAP (I know, I know... nothing like SERE or QP training but training none-the-less). We taught two very important accronyms: SURVIVAL and COLDER.

Tools are only 5% of surviving a survival situation. The breakdown is 80% is your will to live, 15% is your knowledge of survival craft, and only 5% is your equipment. Nature will be your friend or foe, it does not care if you live or die. If you respect nature and use it positively to your advantage, it will aide you in your survival. If you do not, it will carry you to its death.

SURVIVAL:
Size up the situation
Undue haste makes waste
Remember where you are
Vanquish fear and panic
Improvise
Value living
Act like the natives
Learn basic skills

Just google colder accronym and find it as I know it is used by the army.

I hope I haven't intruded.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by MoPro

I know TR posted a note of caution for those posting that aren't SERE instructors or QPs but I feel confident in this posting (...have to acknowledge protocol).........

Just google colder accronym and find it as I know it is used by the army.

I hope I haven't intruded.

MoPro;

Most QPs don't google SURVIVAL info from the internet. Most have some version of the US Armed Forces Survival Manual on hand. Mine is 1980.

Chapter One The Psychology of Survival

The will to survive -- Where the mind leads.... -- Preparation -- Panic and Fear -- S-U-R-V-I-V-A-L -- Loneliness and Boredom -- Survive in Groups.

Pete

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by MoPro

In all 13 pages of this thread, I haven't seen anybody post on the fact that the word survival is, in-itself, an acronym. .

I am sure you are not referring to the fact that this appears in FM 21-76, March 1969, page 10. But of course, had anyone posted this, they would have probably given credit to the source. This is just one of many acronyms and none are the Rossetta Stone for survival as each have their strengths and weaknesses for application. As far as your assignment of percentages in surviving a "survival situation" there are no such things as absolutes and percentages are absolutes. 80% will to live will not do you too much good after you run out of water, have bled out, or jake-no-shoulders has kissed you for a second time on your 4th point of contact. All aspects are important and must be applied in accordance with the situation in which you find yourself-there is no magic formula against which percentages can be applied.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by MoPro

I know TR posted a note of caution for those posting that aren't SERE instructors or QPs but I feel confident in this posting (...have to acknowledge protocol).

In all 13 pages of this thread, I haven't seen anybody post on the fact that the word survival is, in-itself, an acronym. I was a camp counselor at Aviation Challenge in Huntsville and we even taught the campers this. I also taught survival when I was a Flight Commander in CAP (I know, I know... nothing like SERE or QP training but training none-the-less). We taught two very important accronyms: SURVIVAL and COLDER.

Tools are only 5% of surviving a survival situation. The breakdown is 80% is your will to live, 15% is your knowledge of survival craft, and only 5% is your equipment. Nature will be your friend or foe, it does not care if you live or die. If you respect nature and use it positively to your advantage, it will aide you in your survival. If you do not, it will carry you to its death.

SURVIVAL:
Size up the situation
Undue haste makes waste
Remember where you are
Vanquish fear and panic
Improvise
Value living
Act like the natives
Learn basic skills

Just google colder accronym and find it as I know it is used by the army.

I hope I haven't intruded.

You might want to look up situational awareness and figure out how it applies here.

As in SF, being the gray man is not a bad idea on PS.com.

People who draw attention to themselves in a non-permissive environment, especially when they are not one of the natives, do not tend to survive very long.

TR

[MoPro]

First off, I have the utmost respect for all QPs here and I did not intent to offend or insult anybody.

I apologize if anyone felt ill-intent, but I was posting for those who had questions about basics of survival. I was not posting for those who have been to SERE or undergone any form of training as what I posted here are the very basics; it was just a starting block for those who are new to the topic/Assets. I prefaced my post by saying that I am not a professional nor am I trying to be one; I posted just add an extra piece of information. By stating that S.U.R.V.I.V.A.L. was not posted in prior posts was not as a "gotcha" but rather as an additional piece of information that I thought was a basic teaching that I find valuable. (I apologize for not stating the source, as I learned it during a lecture from a teacher didn't mention where he got it from). Again, my post was not directed at those who have had much/if any experience.

And TR, I apologize if I have stood out in a negative way. I did not think that this post would stand out as the discussions within this particular thread have wavered slightly and I felt that my post fell inline with the general/overall course of discussion. I have constantly tried to maintain a high state of SA which [I hope] has been reflected in my prior posts and the way in which I try to conduct myself. And I guess I need to not try to be the final A in survival and be more of an observant guest.

Again, my apologies, I was only offering up an extra bit of info that I know has helped me in the past.

Best
Morgan

[kgoerz]

Originally Posted by Pete S

Here a good website I found: http://wildwoodsurvival.com/

Most of it is "old school" stuff coming from native american traditions i.e. what are the best plants to make cordage from, how to make snares and traps, field expedient shelters, how to make stone tools, etc.

Good sight, I usually print out a couple of their task and we accomplish them while Camping.
What kind of tent are people using on here. I was lucky enough to obtain a Kifaru four and six Man Tepee in a trade. You cant beat the light weight. Also I enjoy camping in the colder weather more (Less people and no Bugs) The Kifaru Tepees are the only ones I know of that let you hook up a stove on the inside. The Stove and Pipe are only about 4lbs and fold up to the size of a large Laptop computer when disassembled.
Downside is the cost. A four Man with Stove runs around $600 last I checked.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by kgoerz

..... What kind of tent are people using on here..

Tents? Tents?

Man, I'm still at the poncho and bungie cord stage. Only way I can keep the wife at home. The girls think "primative" camping is cool.

[Diablo Blanco]

Great thing about this thread is learning from others something we might not know and are better off because of.

What I like about Bear Grylls and Survivor Man is playing survival critic while watching the show. However if you do watch you are bound to learn something now and then (1 out of 3 shows) that you could use.

For example, before Bear Grylls you would easily find me in the woods hacking wildly at a branch with my knife. I had never thought to use a rock to beat the back of the knife through the wood instead of hacking at it. Great time/strength saver.

From Survivor Man I learned how to make a needle and thread for many uses from an Agave plant which someday might come in handy as I live in the same area.

mugwump - I've had that pocket chainsaw for years now and agree, it is the best. I tried other smaller ones a long time ago and broke them with in 2 minutes. Anyone looking to add to their kit or BOB should add one of those. Great investment overall.

TR originally asked what we would bring and what our priorities are. I'm going on the assumption that I KNOW no one is coming for me for 2 months so certain other requirements fall away.

If I could only carry my items in my pockets/belt this is what I would carry:

• Adventure Medical Kits Pocket Survival Pack (AKA Doug Ritter's PSP)
• Space Bag
• Pocket Chainsaw
• Bic lighter
• Leatherman Ukiah
• canteen with cup and tabs
• petzl e+LITE (thing is small!)
• AMK Pocket Medic Kit with additional betadine
• Sponge sheet
• Maxpedition RollyPoly (if you don't have one and want to know how big they can get, you can stuff a poncho liner into it completely or 7 M16 mags)

If I could take a small assault pack and be SUPER comfortable (Wants):

• 6qt MSR Dromedary bladder
• Woobie
• Complete IMPS net w/ 2 D-rings
• 100ft 550 cord
• Poncho
• 1 container Emergency Survival Food Tabs
• Morton's Salt
• Large can of baked beans
• Aquapak http://www.solarsolutions.info/aquapak/aquapak.html
• Cold Steel Kukri
• Bottle of soap
• medium sized sheet of aluminum

If I could bring a firearm I would bring a .22 survival rifle with a box or two of rounds

My Priorities on the first day are (and since this IS A NON HOSTILE situation):
Shelter, Water then fire

Long Term Priorites are:
Sustainable water supply
Sustainable food sources
Comfortable shelter with a view

Tasks are:
Shelter Area selection
Food Prep area selection
Hygiene and Waste area selection

Sire24657 asked what 2 books we would bring if we could:

*Army Survival Guide - (newest edition available)
*Tom Brown's Field Guide to Wilderness Survival

Now to explain some of my extra items so I can hear about potential replacements and downsides as well as add to the discussion.

• Space bag - besides obvious uses (sleeping, signaling...) it can also be used to collect water or when it finally falls to shreds can be used to increase the insulation on the shelter. Can also be used to wrap food with for storage.
  
• Leatherman Ukiah - great game knife, has all the tools you need to deal with processing game.
  
• petzl e+lite - I've had one of these for a while. While it isn't a combat tough light it still fits the bill for when you need light at night. It also runs for quite a long time without a battery change.
  
• Sponge Sheet - can be used for many purposes. tear it in half and use one half for filtering, water collection, bathing and the other half (when damp) for TP
  
• Maxpedition RollyPoly - drop pouch basically, plug the drain hole on the bottom and you have a small water blivet for moving water (obviously it'll leak out over time) You can also use to hold captured game, fish, foraged foods or gear when moving.
  
• 6qt Bladder - has two parts, the bladder and the cap. Much less items to fail you than a standard camelback. Holds a ton of water
  
• IMPS net w/ D-rings - hammock, fish net, hold your shelter together, fold in half and stuff it for a mattress, use it to help gather wood, leaves, etc.
  
• 550 cord - mostly for snares, traps and shelter lashing. It has a million uses
  
• Morton's Salt - TR goes on about salt so much I have finally given in and added more salt to my what-if-lists. for salting meats for storage and daily intake
  
• Large can of baked beans - food for the first and second day, after that the can will be turned into a wood gasification stove so I can conserve my wood fuel sources and cook more efficiently.
  
• Food tabs - to make the first week a bit more comfortable, doesn't have to be in there if it would violate the terms of the 2 month vacation package.
  
• Aquapak -boiling water uses fuel, fuel you have to find daily. This will allow me to spend less time boiling/filtering water and more time on bringing home the bacon.
  
• Bottle of soap - Dr Bronner's to be exact, it's good for everything literally.
  
• Kukri - machete, axe, weapon. Cold Steel makes one that is styled a bit more like a machete for all the machete enthusiasts.

Two Months is a lot of time, and a lot of time to craft additional need/want items. TR mentioned this scenario is a forest. So I'm running with that.Besides obvious need to do tasks here are some extras for consideration. With all the time on our hands we might as well do some large scale crafting.

A site next to the river is not a good idea, however within 200 - 300 meters is. Reason being, your natural waste area needs to be a good distance from the water source down stream from your living area. Your food prep area should be between you and the water source and more than 100 m from either. Just a rule of thumb. Your food prep area/kitchen is going to attract wild life of all kinds as does the water source. Use this to an advantage and set an extra amount of snares and traps inbetween. Additionally you don't want these critters stumbling into your shelter, the extra distances between help eliminate a lot of problems. With your waste area aways off (latrine trench dug of course)

Medium sized project. Using the pocket saw I would fell some decent sized trees with a base trunk size of 1.5 to 2 ft in diameter. I could cut it in 2 ft lengths and using hot rocks from a fire, burn down the center to make them into large buckets for storing water. This is one way woodland Indians would make canoes. It keeps it in one piece and hardens the inside. Of course the water would taste like the tree. This can be scaled down to make bowls, etc.

Large project: Again using the pocket saw, one could cut a 2 ft diameter tree down and cut the trunk into 4 inch lengths that are large discs. Wrap the perimeter of these discs with tightly wound 550 cord. Punch out the center rings and drive two of these onto the ends of a 3-4 ft straight sturdy pole from a sapling and you have 2 wheels and an axle. Keep building up from there and you have a cart. Realistically, with other tasks in mind, the wheels and axle shouldn't take more than 2 days to complete.

Why would you need a cart? To be more comfortable and efficient. You could move large game with it, firewood, rocks and stones. A word of note: This cart will break down from time to time. A wheel might break, the axle, or some other piece. Be sure to save the large tree trunk for the wheels to make replacements.

For my Shelter
I would start the first night with a lean-to. The next day I would begin making a bow structure (dome). I would use saplings/branches implanted a foot or more into the ground at about 12 ft apart in a circle, bow them over and tie them together in the middle. The walls would be interwoven like a mat with smaller branches for the basic structure and build up the outer walls with a mix of river clay/mud and straw/grass/pine needles. I suppose I could make sun baked bricks out of this mix as well to fashion an inside stove/oven. As time permitted I would dig the floor out to make more standing room in the middle along with 'shelves' and an elevated sleeping platform along the walls. Ideally it would be big enough to have a fire inside. So the roof would need a vent that could be covered during inclimate weather. Drainage might be an issue as would a dirty floor. Floor and bedding mats could be made with thin branches, reeds, plants from near the water...

Food
Fish traps and net would be a great provider. Pine needle tea (yes I've had it). Wait by the water at dawn/dusk with the .22 and bag some game. Set snares and traps along the animal paths. Find some abundant edible plants to compliment my meals and I might actually come back from this trip healthier than when I left!

Water
Purification...you either get it right or you don't.

This is a very alternative method, not the most efficient, if you have other ways use them. You can boil water in a hollowed out tree stump using hot rocks from a fire. Get a good hot fire going and put some rocks in the middle. Try not to use porous rocks. When the rocks start getting hot or glowing carefully place them into the hollowed out tree stump. Wait a minute for the thermodynamics to do its work then get them out and replace them with more hot rocks. If you do it right you can boil water this way. You could even make a stew...mmm rabbits...

Build a filter, mint leaves on rocks, on smaller rocks, on large grain sand, on smaller grain sand, on activated charcoal, on cloth. You don't need mint, that's only a forest mojito.

Ceramic filter from river clay. You will need to force the water through it. This is a bit advanced though and depends on too many details for this post.

Or dig a well...no not a deep one! about 4 - 5 feet from a water source, keep it covered. Rotate weekly

Fire away!

[The Reaper]

Some good ideas there DB, but I do not think you are going to fell a lot of 24" diameter trees unless that pocket chainsaw has a two-stroke engine attached to it. You will most likely get it stuck in the first large tree you try to fell with it, and be without a saw for the rest of your stay. It would be difficult to cut the normal wedge and backcut with one without getting it pinched by the tree. I would not attempt anything over 8" or so with it, maybe 12" if I really needed it. Yes, I own a couple of them and have used them in the woods.

Might be a challenge to pitch your hammock in a dome structure, too.

I would want a multi-tool or SAK, but if you think you can get by with a skinning blade, that is your call.

Personally, I would carry the 550 cord on me rather than as an add-on. Trust me, it can be a lifesaver.

In my experience, you can set up as close to flowing water as you like, if you remember to take your potable water on the upstream side of camp and are the only one in the area (so you are not making anyone sick downstream). Nature is putting plenty of feces, urine, dead fish and animal carcasses, giardia, etc. in the water upstream from you, whether you are there or not.

Otherwise, I like the way you think. Good detailed list with some oddities. Beans???

TR

[Diablo Blanco]

You are right TR. A 24" inch tree would pinch the saw. I was thinking about this last night and you could make a useable cart with 12" wheels, which would be easier to make and replace than 24".

I hadn't thought to pitch the hammock inside the shelter, I was going to put it outside for naps if any thing. Now that I think about if I can manage to get two standing trees to be a part of the walls then I could do it.

I agree about the multi tool, however I would be using the knife and saw much more in this situation than a multi tool might be able to handle. I'd feel safer with a thinker blade.

550 cord of course, it's part of me boots. To carry on person I suppose at least 20'.

Thanks for the insight TR

[The Reaper]

Roger all.

Rather than building a cart, a travois or a sled might be a better answer. Not sure what you anticipate hauling that would require a cart with a wobbly wheel system, but I would consider looking at the location of those items, the proximity to water and game, and making the camp closer to the heavy items rather than trying to haul them in. The rings in the slices of logs you make the wheels out of will break out in very short order without bearings, and the axle will need lube, or the friction will hog out the wheel hubs as well.

I thought the same thing about the hammock and the shelter. If it is warm weather, find two trees with the proper spacing, and immediately make a lean to over the line between the trees. then later, create a second roof panel on the opposite side to form a pitched roof which will protect from blowing rain.

I lace my boots with several feet of 550 cord. If you gut the ends where they tie, it is much easier to keep them tied.

No worries, glad to see some new thinking here.

TR

[Diablo Blanco]

I can easily imagine the ringed parts popping out in short order, but with some pegs and slats you might be able to get them to stay put by laying the slats crosswise across the wheels. For lube you could use animal fat, slime from stagnant water or even feces if you're desperate enough. Be an interesting project nonetheless. You're right, an akhio/travois sled would be much easier to build and maintain.

Taking your suggestion of proximity reminded me of something I used as a kid not being strong enough to move some large objects. You could rig a zip-line/Z-pulley system if you have enough 550 cord and 2 D-Rings.

For example if you have to move large game or even a log too big to carry, you could run a line between trees spaced about 10 - 15 meters apart. Throw a loop around your object and use a Z pulley line with the 2 D-rings to hoist it up to your line. Fasten the D-Ring directly attached to the loop to the line and remove the Z pulley line and extra D ring. You can now slide the object along your line. When you come to a tree where you need to change over to the next line, use your second D-ring before removing the first. Keep changing over between lines to get your object where you want it. You could even do this with less than 40m of 550 cord if you remove the first line as you get to the second and just keep rotating them between trees.

Of course your lines would have to be high enough to account for line sagging and to keep your object off the ground to reduce drag.

With more materials one could fashion an even better system. I would prefer 4 pulleys and climbing rope.

You don't even need trees to do this. Think about a ski lift. If you had enough line from start to finish and could tie it off securely with a little slack. Using three 10 ft poles tied off at one end to make a tripod (tie the bottoms so they don't slip out too far) Make three tripods. The tripods could substitute for trees.

I wonder what other kinds of 'tools' people can come up with in a forest.

EDIT: to answer TR's Q on Beans

They have some nutritional value but more of a traditional/ritual value to me more than anything. Nearly every Adventure, Challenge, Deployment, Hardship or Victory in my life has been precluded by beans. Not intentionally but it just happens that way. Might as well continue the habit.

Besides BBQ Baked Beans are delicious! Dessert and Dinner all in one!

[funnyman]

In Winter Mountain Warfare School, they had us 100 MPH tape together a lighter to a Chapstick. That one unit was then taped to your dog tags, so you always had it handy.

If you're planning on handling fuel for a small stove/squad-bomb in the winter, you might want to take a pair of rubber dish washing gloves (thick, water-proof and light-weight), otherwise spilt fuel will soak your fiber-based gloves. Plus, they'lll help prevent frostbite caused by spilling fuel on exposed hands.

I took 4 or 5 cotton balls and smooshed vasaline into them. Once I had them in a small ziplock bag, I'd put a bag at the bottom of each ammo pouch. It was an unobtrusive place to keep them, plus it helped push up the mags a bit. Of course, it would be just as easy to store them in your survival/E&E/blow-out kit. Once you lit one of those, it would burn for quite a while even when cold and wet.

-My $.02