Automatic Assault Rifle Schools

[Smokin Joe]

I carry a rifle every day as a rural LEO. A few individuals in my department who have the ear of the Sheriff convienced him to allow some "certain" individuals to have full auto's. I protested long and hard against them carrying full-auto rifles for several reasons.

1. Lack of training
2. Lack of accessible ammo (for reloads) if they ever used full auto
3. There is NO LEO scenario that anyone can think of that will convience me that a full auto rifle is the BEST answer too. Because, if there was I would have a SAW in my truck instead of an AR-15.
4. LEO'S are personally accountable for every single round they send down range, why would I or any other LEO introduce less control over this fact. By allowing an untrained or under trained individual to utilize full auto in an already HIGHLY stressful event such as shooting someone, you introduce less control and more liablity.
5. There is no situation I can't take care of on semi-auto that can be taken care of more effectively with full-auto.

Full auto is a liabilty for LEO's not an assest.

Just my .02 cents

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

3. There is NO LEO scenario that anyone can think of that will convience me that a full auto rifle is the BEST answer too. Because, if there was I would have a SAW in my truck instead of an AR-15.

Full auto is a liabilty for LEO's not an assest.

Just my .02 cents

SJ - Check out the PKMs DSA is offering in 7.62mm (.308) . The next time the Federales do a cross-border incursion you can respond appropriately with a real "auto-getum" machinegun (since Homeland Security says it's not a military problem, it's got to be that elusive LEO scenario you're looking for ). Sadly, human nature being what it is, nothing can stop the proliferation of LEOs w/automatic weapons. It'll take losing lawsuits with huge settlements (that can only happen after a PR disaster - e.g. children getting killed) to scare politicians/bureaucrats into imposing limits.

Assault rifles (and similar "personal" weapons capable of automatic fire) do have legitimate uses. The majority of them I can think of are purely military but some "SWAT" (I don't like the drama associated with it either - but it does communicate the idea) scenarios could be argued. On the other hand I believe machine guns in the posession of law enforcement are a population control tool straight out of every totalitarian regime's playbook. And the argument about gangsters is a non-starter too. If I'm being shot at I would much rather the bad guys were in "spray and pray" mode than taking single well aimed shots. (Machine guns are a different story, I take them seriously all the time.)

The 64 Million Dollar question - how do we (concerned citizens) ensure our LEOs get at least Skill Level One training before they're allowed on the streets with these weapons? I've seen the H&K curriculuum, it's well thought out, pretty comprehensive, and does a good job of selling their product responsibly. I haven't seen the NRA course but they have good lawyers and a respected tradition of LEO training support so I'm inclined to believe it's at least adequate. (Can anybody with experience confirm/deny?) I know Gunsite and Blackwater have courses, I assume Thunder Ranch and Valhalla can come up with something if the market supports it, there are a few reputable individuals with travelling road shows who teach to an exclusive audience, and then there's every T,D, & H with access to the weapons and a range who would like to make money off of the gullible. (The previous statements are predicated on the quality of the instructors presenting the training - the best program in the world is at the mercy of the individual conducting the training.) Back to TS's question - what's out there and who does a good job? Only training and familiarity will deglamorize the infatuation the uneducated have for these weapons. Now that they're out there the most effective way to reduce risk/increase safety is to adjust the "nut" behind the trigger. The best safety is a well trained user. Peregrino

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

SJ - Check out the PKMs DSA is offering in 7.62mm (.308) . The next time the Federales do a cross-border incursion you can respond appropriately with a real "auto-getum" machinegun (since Homeland Security says it's not a military problem, it's got to be that elusive LEO scenario you're looking for ).

Well then, if open land warfare on U.S. soil is an LEO problem then you got me there. Of all of the scenarios I have table topped with others this one was never brought up. I shall bring it up tomorrow morning at work, maybe we can get a grant too. Except I want a GAU on an Up armored HUMMV

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

Well then, if open land warfare on U.S. soil is an LEO problem then you got me there. Of all of the scenarios I have table topped with others this one was never brought up. I shall bring it up tomorrow morning at work, maybe we can get a grant too. Except I want a GAU on an Up armored HUMMV

SJ - Stick with the PKM and a Toyota pickup. Halfway to an APC just means you get overconfident but don't have the a** to back it up. Not to mention the log tail it takes to keep the HUMMER/GAU in action. Don't get me wrong, the guys are doing great work with this combo in the sandbox but can you/your department support it in Flagstaff? In the right hands, the Toyota/PKM is appropriate technology that's easy to support and surprisingly flexible (from a tactical sense). And if it gets really bad you stick the MG under a tarp/behind the seat and run & hide to try again later. Can't do that with your picks. (I've learned a lot from my LBGs/the adversaries over the years.) FWIW - Peregrino

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

And the argument about gangsters is a non-starter too. If I'm being shot at I would much rather the bad guys were in "spray and pray" mode than taking single well aimed shots. (Machine guns are a different story, I take them seriously all the time.)

Peregrino

I was waiting for someone to make this point.....

Autofire from an assault rifle is a mistake and will cause unwarranted collateral damage. One shot one kill is the perfect thought process while at the other end is a belt fed M2HB that will also do the job but at what cost?

The goal should be the "controlled pair" with an assault rifle, or submachinegun. And if the subject is wearing armor and does not go down a controlled pair to the head makes quick work of the BG.

TS