Ammo Temps / Handloading

Gene Econ · 07-31-2005, 21:05

Guys:

Rick has confirmed my 'feeling' about the Chey Tac or what ever it is called. Same with Mr. Reaper. Roger that -- understand the situation completely and enough said.

Rick went over the requirement that motivated the SOTI courses to instruct handloading and one fellow commented on changes in zero due to temperatures of the ammo.

Ammo temp does have an effect but how much? Here is a little test I did with some 3/2 snipers while running some training at Yakima two or three years ago. I did this because the guys were asking.

I bought a little Radio Shack electronic thermometer with a probe and got the temp of some M-118 SB in an ammo can. It was late November at Yakima and the ammo in the ammo can was about 50 degrees F. I took ten rounds of 118 and cooked them with an MRE heater for about ten minutes. They got to about 120 degrees F. Temp difference being about 70 degrees F.

Then I had a guy fire ten shots of each over a chronograph. I figure the MRE heated 118 was hot as he had to very quickly chuck them into the chamber due to how hot they were -- he, he, he. Very little difference in velocities -- 40 - 50 fps. A minute at best. Zero changes? Sure, given a High Master competitive shooter firing a top notch match rifle on a good KD range. Given an average trained sniper firing field fire in a desert in the bright sun and wind -- impossible to determine if there was any change in probability of hit.

I will say that standard deviation was greater with the heated ammo than the cooler ammo.

I believe that the Army uses the ball powder it uses for consistency over a wide temperature range. I have never found a 'practical' difference in terms of zero unless the ammo is real, real cold or real, real hot. Cold or hot enough to require the shooter to handle the ammo with gloves of some sort. However, this was at practical ranges to about 500 and not at 1000 where no doubt it would make a practical difference. I personally think the ball powder doesn't give as much consistency in velocities but I do think it is more consistent over a wide range of temperatures than extruded powders. No, I don't shoot ball powder in competition.

The handloading issue has IMHO never been of any tactical value in a sniper course, even during the Cold War. Rick can tell you that Army Material Command gave the SOTIC permission to hand load but otherwise will not grant this permission to any tactical unit I know of. I liked the handloading POI because it got guys interested in their profession and to me this was a huge benefit of having it as part of any sniper course. Getting guys interested in pursuing their skill is a very good thing indeed and the handloading training got more interested rather than less.

Yes, I have used Soviet bullets and powder pulled from Soviet 7.62 X 54 R to handload NATO 7.62. Both the 150 grain and 180 grain 7.62 X 54 ammo. It is a very tricky situation and I would not advise it unless one understands Soviet production thought and is extremely anal about measuring things, and thinking before he acts. M-118 outshot these 'recovered' handloads.

Gene

longrange1947 · 07-31-2005, 22:28

Gene kinda goes against some of the observations that I have had. As far as the ball powder, according to LC they used it for the mass production throws to better and more consistant powder throws on the production line.

When they changed the powder in the mid 80s from M118 National Match to M118 Special Ball, they had real problems with consistant throws in powder weight. That first lot went at Mintue of 55 gal drum.

As a side note I think they have given 5th Group a waver on reloads as well. They are playing around with all sorts of screwy shit.

HOLLiS · 08-01-2005, 10:24

On my bench/long range loads, I individually weigh each charge. Using ball or extruded powder has no advantage on weight consistency because that. Some of the newer powder measure have a trickle feed, (Lyman, RCBS) and dispenses powder based on weight rather than volume.

And Yes, Great discussion. When I benched rest shot, I would also measure case volume, and group cases. Weight Bullets etc..... Now I tend to like shooting buffalo size clangers at 1000 yards with a 45/70 black powder cartridges with open sites. It is more laid back. I think to be a great bench shooter it takes a person with a personality that can endure highly methodical, extremely slow precision tasks.

DDD · 08-01-2005, 10:51

Gene,
Are you still making your own bullets? If so I'm still waiting for my 1000 rds of .45

. Say hey to Dirty Bob for me and tell him to get online.
DDD

longrange1947 · 08-01-2005, 13:30

Hollis that is true now but back then it was a mass production line that threw charges by mechanics and not trickle.

Gene Econ · 08-01-2005, 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDD

Gene,
Are you still making your own bullets? If so I'm still waiting for my 1000 rds of .45

. Say hey to Dirty Bob for me and tell him to get online.
DDD

Still make some bullets for the .30 caliber and even compete with them when I shoot the .30 caliber which isn't much these days. The 6mm and 6.5mm are superior in terms of accuracy and exterior ballistics factors.

Have no dies for .45 but am seriously thinking of investing the money to swage my own pistol bullets. Will take more consideration as I can buy a whole bunch of pistol bullets for the thousand or so dollars it would cost for swaging dies for my machine.

Funny you should mention Dirty Bob as we had lunch today. Will have him over this weekend as well. I mentioned PS to him today and he is interested.

Gene

EchoSixMike · 08-01-2005, 21:44

Have you considered casting instead of swaging? It's how I feed my habit for pistol bullets, as well as 45/70. I try to get out twice a week for 300 rds or so, and bullets cast from wheelweight alloy cost me next to nothing except time, and with 4 & 6 hole molds, not even much of that. S/F....Ken M