12-08-2004, 07:05
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#1
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Asset
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Fort Stewart
Posts: 35
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Does the "Regular Army" hate SF?
Gentlemen, I've always believed that it is better to keep your dreams/goals to yourself because if you let others know about what you intend to manifest, you'll end up having to defend your intentions. It seems that many people in the "regular Army" either look at SF as an impossible dream or as something not worth doing. Everyone seems to have a story about how they went to Selection(this also goes for Ranger School too), but they didn't succeed and they then try to discourage anyone else from trying. My reason for this post is not to validate my own reasons for setting my sights on SF. I'm just wondering if any of you guys that came from conventional units had any difficulty with your chain of command letting you go? Kuri OUT.
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Kuri is offline
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12-08-2004, 08:22
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#2
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Bladesmith to the Quiet Professionals
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oregon, Land of the Silver Grey Sunsets
Posts: 3,886
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Long history on this one.
I'll let the others jump in.
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Bill Harsey is offline
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12-08-2004, 08:26
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#3
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,826
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kuri
Gentlemen, I've always believed that it is better to keep your dreams/goals to yourself because if you let others know about what you intend to manifest, you'll end up having to defend your intentions. It seems that many people in the "regular Army" either look at SF as an impossible dream or as something not worth doing. Everyone seems to have a story about how they went to Selection(this also goes for Ranger School too), but they didn't succeed and they then try to discourage anyone else from trying. My reason for this post is not to validate my own reasons for setting my sights on SF. I'm just wondering if any of you guys that came from conventional units had any difficulty with your chain of command letting you go? Kuri OUT.
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I have spoken with soldiers attending SFAS extensively about that.
Much of it is in the timing. If you tell your leadership that you want to go to SFAS right before a major unit event or a deployment, particularly if you are a key player or are in a leadership position, you will probably encounter resistance.
Frequently, the motivation for requesting SFAS is suspect. Many of the students ARE coming to SFAS for reasons other than being selected. These are the ones who fail the APFT, or VW in the first week. Maybe they wanted a free trip to Camp Mackall, maybe they wanted to get out of something back at their unit.
Some units just have a culture that hates SF and tries every trick in the book to keep their soldiers from attending. Some of the worst used to be infantry units, particularly the 82nd or 3rd ID. The absolute worst, hands down, was the Ranger Regiment. They will refuse to allow soldiers to attend SFAS, remove them from leadership positions, re-write efficiency reports, threaten with UCMJ or release from Regiment, refuse to process the 4187, put guys on CQ/Staff Duty for weeks at a time, hide the SFAS orders from the soldiers, refuse to administer required physicals, etc. At the same time, Rangers attending other selection courses get duty time off to prepare, etc. Go figure. Overall, support units give their soldiers less hassles about coming to SFAS than combat arms.
In some cases, the officer leadership is the problem (usually when it is an officer requesting attendance), but in most, it is the NCO chain of command at the E-8 and E-9 levels. Much of that is not wanting to lose their best guys, but in many cases, I think that it is jealousy and a wish that they had done the same thing when they had the chance. Some probably tried, and failed, so that may also be part of it as well.
What is really perplexing to me is that candidates who return to their units have basically been through some great physical training, the most demanding cross-country movement, the best test of operating solo, and the finest land navigation training in the military, an outstanding peer and self-assessment review, and a truly awesome opportunity to see how well you interact with others as a member of a team, for less than a 30 day loss of the soldier. Frankly, I would not care if soldier went, as long as he didn't quit. I know that I would get a much better soldier back, even if I only got to keep him for another six months while he waited for SFQC orders. It really is for the good of the Army and this great nation to let the soldiers try, and let the ones who succeed go to SF. The leaders who don't are putting their personal interests above those of the service.
Any man who sticks it out till the end of Selection gets fully out-counseled on their strengths and weaknesses, what they need to do to succeed, and should leave with dignity and confidence intact. These guys are powerful recruiters (or discouragers) when they get back to their units and talk to their peers about the experience. It behooves us to make their experience a positive one. Most of the trash talkers and nay sayers are probably quitters.
If it were me, I would make sure that no critical unit activities or deployments were coming up, no efficiency report was due in the near future, start getting all of my paperwork together, train-up and drop the 4187 at the last minute, requesting the first available SFAS class. Then keep copies of everything, track the status, and stay in touch with the recruiter.
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
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The Reaper is offline
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12-08-2004, 09:36
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#4
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Vermont
Posts: 3,093
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Kuri there are a lot of folks outside (and some inside) the SOF community that just don't have clue what SF is all about. I find it interesting that those that tried and failed can make up their mind about anything dealing with SF. The training and or selection is just the beginning and someone coming out of the training knows enough to get their foot in the team room door. The real training and development starts from the first day they meet their Team Sergeant and doesn't stop until they hang up their beret. There are a lot or reasons for these attitudes and run from ignorance, as I mentioned, to being absolutely embarrassed professionally by some SF soldier or team. The biggest point of contention from the regular folks is the money available for SOF to obtain the latest widgits and/or for training. Most SF troops fire more ammo in a month during training than many conventional units fire in a year. I realize that there are a lot of variables here and that I have only scratched the surface but I think I can unequivocably say that the primary reason is that most organizations do not want to lose their best troops to something that they either are not willing to participate in or lost their oppportunity because of their own career choices.
Jack Moroney
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Wenn einer von uns fallen sollt, der Andere steht für zwei.
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Jack Moroney (RIP) is offline
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12-08-2004, 12:46
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#5
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Excellent posts Sirs.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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12-08-2004, 12:57
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#6
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Tampa
Posts: 2,531
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
Excellent posts Sirs.
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Concur!
For every few that succeed, there are a hundred that failed or quit...for the hundred that failed or quit, there are a thousand who say "I was gonna try out...BUT (insert excuse de jour here)".
This creates an impression of aloofness OUTSIDE of the organization. Few folks also get training opportunities that we do on a fairly regular basis. This also can create an air of jealosy and disdain seeing the "guys with long hair and square chutes" drive to the DZ in their POV's while the 82nd was trucked out and has been sitting in chalk lines for 5 hours after JMPI in the Carolina sun.
Bottom line-don't worry about what others think...It's what's in your heart, motivating you to succeed, that is important.
Good Luck-
Eagle
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Primum non Nocere
"I have hung out in dangerous places a lot over the years, from combat zones to biker bars, and it is the weak, the unaware, or those looking for it, that usually find trouble.
Ain't no one getting out of this world alive. All you can do is try to have some choice in the way you go. Prepare yourself (and your affairs), and when your number is up, die on your feet fighting rather than on your knees. And make the SOBs pay dearly."
The Reaper-3 Sep 04
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Eagle5US is offline
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12-08-2004, 15:50
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#7
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Red State
Posts: 3,774
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Does the "Regular Army" hate SF?
A tale from the RVN era or it might even be true!!!
When "SPLASH" Kelly had the 5th Gp. in VN,he was able to have afew men he didn't like transferred the the 9th ID in IV Corp.
He warned the divison CG these were not very good soldiers in his book.
Awhile later CG 9th ID contacted "SPLASH" and said he would like atleast 100 more of his misfits.
BMT
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Don't mess with old farts...age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill! Bullshit and brilliance only come with age and experience.
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BMT (RIP) is offline
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12-25-2004, 18:46
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#8
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Asset
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Raeford
Posts: 2
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Kuri,
I was just relieved of my job as a Platoon Sergeant for volunteering. I am in the 82nd and a Senior SFC.
Reaper I just came across this thread after I PM'd you. It hits home. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All.
RANGER X
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RANGER X is offline
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12-25-2004, 19:07
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#9
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Williamston, SC
Posts: 2,018
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RANGER X
Kuri,
I was just relieved of my job as a Platoon Sergeant for volunteering. I am in the 82nd and a Senior SFC.
Reaper I just came across this thread after I PM'd you. It hits home. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All.
RANGER X
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As long as you were relieved without prejudice, it makes sense, The platoon needs a PSG who will be there in the event of deployment. When you become a known or presumed loss, you effectiveness decreases.
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QRQ 30 is offline
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12-25-2004, 20:03
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#10
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Asset
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Raeford
Posts: 2
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QRQ 30,
Absolutely. I was aware of the risk before I dropped my paperwork. The opportunity presented itself to me after I presumed it was to late. The Recruiters contacted me first and informed me that I fit the criteria that they were looking for. I am not pointing fingers or placing blame on anyone, but merely encouraging one to be aware of the consequences before volunteering. The whole known and presumed loss to the unit makes perfect sense. As far as predjudicial well I will save that subject for another time. Take care.
Ski
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RANGER X is offline
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12-25-2004, 20:33
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#11
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Good incentive not to quit.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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12-25-2004, 21:38
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#12
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Asset
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Fort Stewart
Posts: 35
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Rangerx
Good luck, and thanks for sharing your experiences.
__________________
To survive in war, misery must be compartmentalized. Pain denied. It is critical to maintain focus, too much thinking can overwhelm even the strongest willpower. If the mind does not accept the possibility of failure, the well trained body obeys....
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Kuri is offline
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