On the Run

[The Reaper]

Another scenario to play with.

You are at home and have five minutes notice that you are about to be raided by a vastly superior force. You need to execute your personal E&E plan.

The streets and roads are already covered for vehicle movement, so you will have to move out on foot to a safe area 100 miles away.

You already have a bug out bag prepared with 45 pounds of food, water, shelter, med gear, survival tools, etc. We can discuss the contents of the bag if you like.

You need to hit the woods on foot and may need to harvest game, defend yourself against predators, and engage small hostile teams. Try not to beat this scenario to death.

Your safe is open and you may grab as many weapons, mags, and as much ammo as you wish to carry.

What do you take and why?

TR

[Streck-Fu]

I grab the bag and my AR because it wins the ammo quantity/weight contest. I'd take 190 rounds of ammo because that is what I will have already loaded.
The alternative is the M1 Carbine but it lacks the range and accuracy.
2nd alternative is the Garand which has range and power in spades but weight and stripper clips are the drawbacks.

Is my destination fixed or am I just trying to get 100 miles away in any direction? I ask because I can move NE and avoid highways and major roads. Any other direction has me crossing interstates within 20 miles.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Streck-Fu

I grab the bag and my AR because it wins the ammo quantity/weight contest. I'd take 190 rounds of ammo because that is what I will have already loaded.
The alternative is the M1 Carbine but it lacks the range and accuracy.
2nd alternative is the Garand which has range and power in spades but weight and stripper clips are the drawbacks.

Is my destination fixed or am I just trying to get 100 miles away in any direction? I ask because I can move NE and avoid highways and major roads. Any other direction has me crossing interstates within 20 miles.

You select the destination.

The distance has more to do with making for a reasonable load and requiring foraging/hunting/fishing as well as defense and necessitating several days and nights of movement.

No handgun or hunting weapons?

Not saying right or wrong, just trying to see your logic.

TR

[BryanK]

I live 1 block from a major waterway (Potomac river) and I have access to a boat. Will we be assuming these hooligans have a small navy? If so, I will be taking the river anyway with the wife at the helm, and me on the 700PSS. I'd also take my .22 rifle (semi-auto Marlin) and my M9 for any potential hunting needs or threats once we hit land again. Rations are covered, and we'd head north appx 100 miles to the folks house.

Once we hit land, it would be roughly a 20 mile hike after running up feeder streams/creeks. Not too bad.

[The Reaper]

For the purposes of this thread, it really doesn't matter what your plan is, how far it is, how you plan to get there, or where you plan on going, as long as you can quickly collect and take gear that will reasonably get you through a week to ten days of cross-country tactical movement in potentially hostile territory. You are allowed to engage hostiles, as you deem necessary.

The intent is to discuss weapons choices and possibly bug out bag contents.

I would expand the scenario to include guys stationed in theater, but their weapons selections would be significantly more limited. If there is interest, I will start another thread (or revive an old one) for E&R bags and contents.

TR

[BigJimCalhoun]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

If there is interest, I will start another thread (or revive an old one) for E&R bags and contents.

TR

I express interest Sir.

[BryanK]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

...The intent is to discuss weapons choices and possibly bug out bag contents.

TR

Roger. First up is my gear followed by the wifes gear

Weapon Choices:

I'd have to take my .308 Rem 700 for stand-off purposes even though it weighs as much as a buick. I'd carry 60 rounds which I think would be sufficient for the short-term. My small take-down .22 Marlin 70P will be slung and I'd carry roughly 200 rounds (100 regular, and 100 very quiet Super Colibri rounds which can kill a squirrel at 30 yards) for it between the pack and wear. M9 hip-holstered with dual drop leg rigs set up to carry my .22 and 9mm mags (helps distribute weight).

ProTech folder knife (auto), and this dinky Smith & Wesson "rescue" knife that has served me well skinning/butchering game without losing it's edge.

Pack:

Camelback, 3 MRE's, a pack or two of crackers, small bag of Fritos (good fire starter) and a loaf of bread. Light and fills you up, plus the bread doubles as bait to catch real bait with. Small first aid kit, 550 cord, small roll of 100mph tape, fishing line, a few sinkers, bobbers, and hooks. I like the idea of snare wire, but my limited experience and lack of time to wait (due to the E&E) would render that moot I think.

Also in the pack would be a sharpening stone, a few ziplocks, a few Bic lighters, a pair of small bino's, E-tool, extra diapers, and a healthy dose of motivation.

Wife's kit:

Baby, baby carrier (front load), Camelback, diapers, pacifier, and a few extra rounds of whatever will fit. I need to keep her light so she doesn't tire out too quickly. An interesting fact for those who don't already know, is that a breast-fed babies shit doesn't stink all that much and will not be detectable by nearby threats (either 2 or 4 legged). It's also a plus not having to lug around formula.

ETA: 2 ponchos and 2 woobies

[Sdiver]

Funny you brought this up T.R. I've thought about this scenario a few times already.

I have the luxury of living right next to the foothills, SW of D-town Denver, and there are several bike trails and greenbelts by my place which lead up into the hills, so I have a few routes already planned. ("Wolverines" ) I know of several caves and abandoned mines further up into the hills, so that would be a likely destination. Some are close to streams and small ponds (although I wouldn't count on the ponds being "fresh" next to the mines, but it is a water source).

Along with my bug out bag, the weapons I would grab would be:
Side arm: 1911 with 161 rounds. Two 50 round boxes, and eight mags ... 4 eight round and 4 seven round.
My M&P 15 with seven 30 round mags = 210 rounds (along with three empty mags)
The Garand with 80 rounds (ten clips) for the "far reaching" effect an M1 has.

I know this sounds crazy, but I'd also grab my Mossberg 500, along with two boxes of bird shot (one box of #7 and one box of #9), a box of slugs, and a box of 00. (twenty rounds each box).

I have a nice 5.11 "fanny pack" that I can fit the six 5.56 mags, the boxes of ammo and 1911 mags in, and still have room, which I can put in a cleaning kit for all weapons, along with some rags for quick wipe downs.

I know this sounds (looks) like a lot to hump up hill, but I always thought/planned, I could stash the fanny pack and one or two long guns, off trail, scout ahead, drop off what I've brought up, go back to the "stash, retrieve that and just "leap frog" as needed.

[Streck-Fu]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

You select the destination.

Ok, I'll choose 100 miles NE as it is far less populated and no major highways to be spotted crossing. There are several waterways as well to replenish water or fish from.

No handgun or hunting weapons?

I thought of the handgun as a given so to define it, make it a G17 with 4 magazines. As for a hunting weapon, you can't hunt game with an AR? I handload 65gr Sierra Gameking which will work well for game and 2 legged varmint. And .223/5.56 can be replenished easily if necessary.

I will start another thread (or revive an old one) for E&R bags and contents.

Because that thread exists, I did not rehash bag contents.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Streck-Fu

Ok, I'll choose 100 miles NE as it is far less populated and no major highways to be spotted crossing. There are several waterways as well to replenish water or fish from.

I thought of the handgun as a given so to define it, make it a G17 with 4 magazines. As for a hunting weapon, you can't hunt game with an AR? I handload 65gr Sierra Gameking which will work well for game and 2 legged varmint. And .223/5.56 can be replenished easily if necessary.

Because that thread exists, I did not rehash bag contents.

Yes you can hunt with an AR, but I would not want to have to rely on it to stop a deer (or a bear, for that matter). It is an excellent anti-personnel weapon, is reasonably reliable, compact, accurate, relatively lightweight, and spare parts/mags/ammo are common.

To my logic, the primary purpose of the handgun would be to provide a back-up to the primary weapon in the event of a stoppage. Secondarily would be to harvest small game or dispatch small targets more quietly than the rifle.

Hey, just my perspective, anyone with a better one, I would like to hear it. Share the best practices and examine some alternative thinking. Rational dissenting opinions are welcome.

TR

[bubba]

The trade offs of rifle v pistol:

Rifle / Carbine

Up Sides: If I get in a fight with a couple of folks, I have the advantage. If a deer etc is spotted, I am gonna eat well for a while.

Down Sides: I am an instant target to anyone who spots me. Ammo is heavy and may slow me down. I may feel like I can whip anyone and bight off more than I can chew.

Pistol

Up Sides: Small, light, and concealed. I can defend myself against an armed threat. If I am carrying a smaller caliber weapon, smaller "game" like dogs become a possibility. I am traveling light and "among the fish".

Down Sides: If I get in a fight with a couple folks, I am likely to be way out gunned. I can't take mid sized game.

Yup, my personnel conclusion for most situations is to only have a pistol, likely a 9mm Glock. My ability to move incognito is my greatest strength as a singleton. If possible, I would move to a safe location and recover a cache with a long gun or 2, but only if I was in a place where I could make friends and influence others / await pickup from a larger force that is on the way.

The only glaring excetpion would be somewhere like Somalia or Yemen where EVERYONE has an AK. Then, I'd definitely have one and 3-5 mags.

Just my thoughts.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by DocIllinois

100 miles all around me is nothing but flat cornfields dotted mostly with small farm towns. Its growing season but the corn isn't yet my height. Deer are present in the occasional draw. Possum, raccoon, rabbit, squirrel are plentiful. I'll go south, since it puts me further away from Chicago and it's suburbs.

Night travel.

Agree with Streck's AR and ammo selection.

Map and Silva compass. It can be a long way between landmarks, and cornfields can all start to look the same at night. Also a map case. Summer showers tend to be heavy.

Military issue bivy cover. Its hot here at the moment, even at night. Why carry something heavier?

Fjallkniven TK4 folder. Light, small enough when folded, heavy duty enough to disassemble anything up to a deer.

Roll of snare wire. Been hunting smaller game here with it since I was a kid.

Blastmatch firestarter & Wetfire tinder - light, all weather, 3x the heat of a match.

Doc:

Good plan.

I would prefer to bug out with a few more items. Personally, the categories of gear I would consider for mostly year round survival are:

Ruck/carrying bag must be light, durable, and contain/carry the following categories of items:

Fire starting and fuel- For fire in a semi- or non-permissive environment
Water container, collection, storage, and purification
Shelter or materials for dry, insect-free, and warmth
Cordage - Line, wire, tape, glue
Tools - Shelter building, firewood collecting, game prep, construction, repair
Signaling - As needed, probably less given the threat. Would pull the cell battery or ditch the phone, BTW.
First Aid - Trauma and general survival health
Food - Carried, hunting, trapping, fishing, cooking, seasonings, salt
Navigation - Map, compass, and possibly GPS
Lighting - Headlamp and handheld or weapon light
Clothing - Rain/cold weather gear, socks, and underwear, possibly spare shoes/boots
Cash? No checks, credit, or debit cards, obviously

Just a few thoughts. Obviously, this is not a Lewis and Clark type adventure, but a day or two without water, food, or a dry warm place will suck.

Also, I would note that you could build a summer BoB and a Winter BoB, or just swap and add items to your bag as necessary. I probably couldn't remember to do that, so I guess I would be dumping unneeded items at the first halt. Yet another reason to keep the weapons loadout light.

Originally Posted by Sdiver

Funny you brought this up T.R. I've thought about this scenario a few times already.

I have the luxury of living right next to the foothills, SW of D-town Denver, and there are several bike trails and greenbelts by my place which lead up into the hills, so I have a few routes already planned. ("Wolverines" ) I know of several caves and abandoned mines further up into the hills, so that would be a likely destination. Some are close to streams and small ponds (although I wouldn't count on the ponds being "fresh" next to the mines, but it is a water source).

Along with my bug out bag, the weapons I would grab would be:
Side arm: 1911 with 111 rounds. Two 50 round boxes, and eight mags ... 4 eight round and 4 seven round.
My M&P 15 with seven 30 round mags = 210 rounds (along with three empty mags)
The Garand with 80 rounds (ten clips) for the "far reaching" effect an M1 has.

I know this sounds crazy, but I'd also grab my Mossberg 500, along with two boxes of bird shot (one box of #7 and one box of #9), a box of slugs, and a box of 00. (twenty rounds each box).

I have a nice 5.11 "fanny pack" that I can fit the six 5.56 mags, the boxes of ammo and 1911 mags in, and still have room, which I can put in a cleaning kit for all weapons, along with some rags for quick wipe downs.

I know this sounds (looks) like a lot to hump up hill, but I always thought/planned, I could stash the fanny pack and one or two long guns, off trail, scout ahead, drop off what I've brought up, go back to the "stash, retrieve that and just "leap frog" as needed.

I like your loadout, if I had a vehicle, but you would have over fifty pounds of guns and ammo, exclusive of any of the other necessities. I would not want to be humping close to 100 pounds of gear up those hills at that altitude, especially with the cold weather burden. Leap frogging means humping twice the distance, for twice the time. You may be able to do it though, but I think it is tactically unsound. Hard to speed reload from a fanny pack, too.

Originally Posted by bubba

The trade offs of rifle v pistol:

Rifle / Carbine

Up Sides: If I get in a fight with a couple of folks, I have the advantage. If a deer etc is spotted, I am gonna eat well for a while.

Down Sides: I am an instant target to anyone who spots me. Ammo is heavy and may slow me down. I may feel like I can whip anyone and bight off more than I can chew.

Pistol

Up Sides: Small, light, and concealed. I can defend myself against an armed threat. If I am carrying a smaller caliber weapon, smaller "game" like dogs become a possibility. I am traveling light and "among the fish".

Down Sides: If I get in a fight with a couple folks, I am likely to be way out gunned. I can't take mid sized game.

Yup, my personnel conclusion for most situations is to only have a pistol, likely a 9mm Glock. My ability to move incognito is my greatest strength as a singleton. If possible, I would move to a safe location and recover a cache with a long gun or 2, but only if I was in a place where I could make friends and influence others / await pickup from a larger force that is on the way.

The only glaring excetpion would be somewhere like Somalia or Yemen where EVERYONE has an AK. Then, I'd definitely have one and 3-5 mags.

Just my thoughts.

Bubba, you are the opposite of Sdiver.

I would be concerned about the range limitations and game gathering ability of a 9mm pistol, but you have a plan, have been through SERE, and I respect your perspective.

One additional consideration would be that you could break down a short M-4 and stuff it in your pack, only needing to reinstall the upper and load it to be able to use the carbine.

Your loaded Glock 9mm with a holster is roughly two pounds. The carbine (M-4 or AK), with normal accessories of an optic, mount, sling, etc. and 3-4x30 rd. mags would add another 12-14 pounds.

Big difference, but you have limited yourself to fairly small game under 50 meters range, and very limited defenses other than stealth and avoidance.

TR

[MR2]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

You are at home and have five minutes notice that you are about to be raided by a vastly superior force. You need to execute your personal E&E plan.

Cover(s) for status and cover for action are occasionally war-gamed during family dinners.

I suppose it depends on if the raiders are state sponsored or not. If not, we can hold until relieved.

Firearms are PACE for handguns only. Still short on full complement of defensive ammo, but have enough of ball to backfill. Working on ACE for shotgun and carbines.



I'm in a major urban area. We (spouse and I) have two backpacks (35 & 25lbs.) ready to go. This includes a homeless disguise that will work from dusk to dawn during egress and in appropriate locations during daylight. Dog tracking is a viable concern and contingency has been planned. Multiple routes have been walked and barking dogs noted.

We have access to a friend's (safe) house with stored supplies six blocks away. Those supplies include two mountain bikes with saddlebags prepacked w 40lbs. food/water/gear. Safe house also has a SUV (w bike rack) that I will 'borrow' as necessary.

From there decision to stay vs. move via foot/bike/vehicle will occur.

Within 2 miles of major Interstates running N/S/E/W. Safe house options within/outside metro area w friends/family/unknown are available in multiple locations. Extensive bike trail system exists as well terminating within the city or various wilderness open spaces/parks. May use homeless disguise to reach Interstate and hitchhike out of area.



You do not own anything that you cannot carry at a dead run for as long as you need to!

[Red Flag 1]

My exit would take me to the Appalachin Trail. It is an easy two hour hike from the house. Plenty of game if needed, and plenty of off trail places to seek concealment. I'll stick to arms, for the moment, and say I would bring along my Glock 17 and the six loaded extended mags. For the long gun, I have a Marlin 30-30 lever action wih iron sights only; 150 rounds should see me through. The other choice is my bolt actioon 30-06, with scope; and 150 rounds for it.

The 30-30 gives me an easily carried weapon with good reach, for game and defense. The 30-06 gives me much better reach, and added accuracy with the mounted scope; the down side is that it is not as easy to carry. Both are accurate and reliable in my hands. Which is the better long gun to take? I've ruled out my 870, 12 gauge, and the 22 gauge weapons. Your thoughts, kind sirs..

RF 1

[The Reaper]

IMHO, you guys with infants and young kids are (temporarily) at a huge disadvantage. We do what we have to to care for our loved ones though. I know I didn't understand that attachment till I had kids of my own. OTOH, you have the opportunity to raise them right, and with the skills to survive.

Those asking about the BoB discussion, there are a couple of threads here that cover them, please look around, do some searching, and if you cannot find what you are after, come back here and ask again.

Unless your route offers a lot of opportunities for long range shots and huge danger areas, I believe that the civilian bolt guns will be of limited utility. I would do some serious tactical analysis and terrain study, take a look at the route(s) from various points along the way, and then decide what the appropriate weapons would be. You may find that the terrain keeps engagement ranges within shotgun range, or allows long range shots where you could whittle the enemy down with a long gun and a powerful round and quickly disappear. Most movement over that distance will be a combination, hence the preference for the magazine-fed, semi-auto carbine. The weapon also comes in a variety of rounds that would allow you to tailor the weapon for the METT-T.

The shelter also needs to be designed around the terrain and seasonal conditions you expect to encounter. No point in humping a sleeping bag if the lows are in the 80s.

An axe, a machete, or a kukri may be appropriate for the tasks you expect to encounter. The final choice will be a compromise that you have to live with.

Those who live in cities or close to major highways are going to have a load of challenges.

I agree, if you are on the run, trapping is impractical, unless you are taking a day off to collect food. The gear is so light and so much more efficient that I cannot imagine not taking at least a few feet of snare wire or a couple of pre-made snares.

Ape Man, I think you are selling yourself short. If you are experienced in the woods, trained and tactically competent, you may fare better against a squad of goons with limited field experience than yyou think. Obviously, if you are the only one being pursued, and a large organization can dedicate its full resources to pursuing just you, with drones and electronic surveillance, thermal tracking, etc., we would all be in jeopardy. OTOH, you hurt people chasing you badly enough, they may find less motivation to close with you and take a punch again.

You can quickly and easily drop in a .22LR conversion kit into an M-4 and use that, if noise is a concern. The 10/22 is a nice plinking and squirrel rifle, but you would be very fortunate to hit anyone beyond 50 meters in a vital area that the .22LR would be effective. I would go beyond scavenging ammo to say that the U.S. planned to drop a million unrifled .45ACP Liberator pistols to the resistance movements in Europe, with instructions telling the people who got them to use the pistol to kill an enemy soldier and take his weapon. Food for thought, if it came down to that.

I can get near .30-30 performance out of a .300 Blackout, and have 30 round mags or more. The ability to shoot subsonic (in the suppressed rifle) by merely popping in a mag of subsonic ammo is very appealing. For those with an AR/M4/M16 rifle already, the switch consists of nothing more than swapping uppers. The ammo is still a little pricey, but you make the brass out of 5.56 cases, and the bullets are all .30 cal/7.62. The powder for most loads is magnum pistol powder. You can push a 110 gr. projo to 2400 fps. The preferred supersonic load seems to be a 125 gr. bullet at 2215 fps. Surplus M80 Ball 147s run right at 2000 fps, so the round is right up there close to the .30-30 and 7.62x39, and the bullets are more efficient than the RNs of the .30-30 or FMJs of the Soviet M43 round.

RF1, I would take a look at the route before making that decision. If you can't take advantage of the superior range of the .30-06, the .30-30 is quicker till you have to reload.

Great discussion, guys, hope it is as helpful to you as it is to me.

TR