Holy War: Should Americans Fear Islam?

[Richard]

I watched this town hall discussion on 'This Week' this morning and found it to be a worthwhile synopses of the current on-going debates.

Richard

Holy War: Should Americans Fear Islam?
'This Week' Transcript, 3 Oct 2010

http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=11786745

[Pete]

This exchange


CHOUDARY: There are many people who are justifying -- there are many people who are justifying the inability to practice the Sharia, to say, "Well, I have a different form of religion." You know, people want to claim that they're vegetarians and they're eating big beef burgers. You can not be a non-practicing vegetarian. Therefore, similarly, if you're a Muslim, you submit to the Sharia.

FRANKLIN GRAHAM: He's telling the truth.

AMANPOUR: You see, Reverend Graham says you're telling the truth. So, do you agree with Reverend Graham and our panelists on this side that Americans should fear Islam?

CHOUDARY: we do believe, as Muslims, the East and the West will one day be governed by the Sharia. Indeed, we believe that one day, the flag of Islam will fly over the White House. Indeed, there's even an oration of the Prophet where he said, "The day of judgment will not come until a group of my oma... -- "

Nothing to see here, move along folks, move along.

We keep saying a Good Muslim is one who believes in the Koran and Sharia law. Why do so many not believe them.

[Richard]

One needs to read the entire transcript and watch the video to understand and appreciate the context of the discussion - it is not what you may think.

Richard

[T-Rock]

(CROSSTALK)
IMAM OSAMA BAHLOUL: You can go to church in Egypt, a church in Syria. Now all this, the church -- we have it in the Middle East. This is something for you to say that Islam is is an Muslim thought, to beat a woman, this is absolutely not right.

Imam Bahloul thinks the Kafiroon are easily fooled by Taqiyya...

DEALING WITH A REBELLIOUS WIFE

m10.12 when a husband notices signs of rebelliousness in his wife.......He may hit her whether she is rebellious only once or whether more than once...

(Reliance of the Traveller - pgs 540 - 542) http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Trave.../dp/0915957728

Wife-beating is divinely sanctioned in the Qur'an and Hadiths...

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is most high. (Sura 4:34)

ETA (Note: Sura 4 is of the Madinan way, the last of Muhammad's revelations)
http://www.islamreview.com/articles/madinasuras.shtml
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Madinan-Way-.../dp/0953863905

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...n/004.qmt.html

Heaven forbid a woman does this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g_QwiYxvkY - Honor killing???

And about those churches in Egypt.....well,

Muslim Body Sets Conditions for Christian Citizenship in Egypt

"...Egypt is an "Islamic State" according to the text of its Constitution, which represents the social contract between its people. "From this stems the rights of citizenship, as taught to us by the Messenger of Allah in his pact with the Christians..."

"citizenship in the traditions of the Islamic Research Council is conditional to non-Muslims in the Egyptian State by their acceptance of the Islamic State, respecting the Islamic identity and accepting the rule of Sharia,"
http://www.aina.org/news/20100930232232.htm

Egypt - Persecution
Disappearing Christians of the Middle East

Sectarian strife quickly re-ignited. On November 6, 1972, an Orthodox church in the Nile delta town of Khanka near Cairo was burned. When Christians held a special mass at the site of the badly damaged church on November 12, anti-Coptic riots erupted. The rioters destroyed homes and shops of local Christians.17
http://www.meforum.org/23/egypt-persecution

http://ibloga.blogspot.com/2010/10/e...to-nation.html

[Richard]

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/video...aylist=6505465

Again - reading the entire script and watching the video to frame the debate, listen to the debaters, watch the expressions of those presenting and the audience, etc, is necessary for context - especially the matter of whether or not there is "one Islam" and whether or not American Muslims are seeking to bring Sharia law to the US, moderate Muslims, etc.

Without doing so...

Richard

[T-Rock]

Again - reading the entire script and watching the video to frame the debate, listen to the debaters, watch the expressions of those presenting and the audience, etc, is necessary for context - especially the matter of whether or not there is "one Islam" and whether or not American Muslims are seeking to bring Sharia law to the US, moderate Muslims, etc.

I did both, watched and re-read the transcripts, and I applaud the discussion but was disappointed by the format, as well as the context. The discussion should not have been based on fear because it implies Islamophobia, an irrational fear rather than a distaste for Islamic Supremacism.


The context was that someone’s feelings can change 100’s of years of scholarly consensus (Ijma). Several times when counter points were brought up, those in favor of Islam repeatedly said that Islam had been hijacked with offering no proof of their claims, and with the doctrine of Taqiyya - in my mind, only actions will/can verify what they were saying in regard to Islamic reformation (Trust but verify) - talk is cheap IMHO.

IMO, the peaceful Muslims who were in the crowd do not invalidate violent, oppressive, and Supremacist teachings of Islamic Law.

I believe those who propose reform mean well, but as for 80% of the worlds population which consists mostly of Sunni, and their four schools of Jurisprudence (Shafi'I, HanbalI, Maliki and Hanafi), the following hurdle is one that will be difficult to overcome, and their schools all pretty much agree on 75% of their rulings

b7.0 SCHOLARLY CONSENSUS (IJMA’)

b7.1: Meaning of Consensus

('Abdal-Wahhab Khallaf: ) Scholarly consensus (ijma') is the agreement of all the mujtahids (def: o22.1(d) ) of the Muslims existing at one particular period after the Prophet's death (Allah bless him and give him peace) about a particular ruling regarding a matter or event. It may be gathered from this that the integral elements of scholarly consensus are four, without which it is invalid:

(a ) that a number of mujtahids exist at a particular time:


(b) that all mujtahids of the Muslims in the period of the thing or event agree on its ruling, regardless of their country, race, or group, though nonmujtahids are of no consequence;

(c) that each mujtahid present his opinion about the matter in an explicit manner, whether verbally, by giving a formal legal opinion on it, or practically, by giving a legal decision in a court case concerning it;

(d) and that all mujtahids agree on the ruling, for if a majority of them agree, consensus is not effected, no matter how few those who contradict it, nor how many those who concur.

b7.2: Scholarly Consensus Is Legally Binding

When the four necessary integrals of consensus exist, the ruling agreed upon is an authoritative part of Sacred Law that is obligatory to obey and not lawful to disobey. Nor can mujtahids of a succeeding era make the thing an object of new ijtihadm because the ruling on it, verified by scholarly consensus, is an absolute legal ruling which does not admit of being contravened or annulled.

b7.3: Koranic evidence

The proof of the legal authority of scholarly consensus is that just as Allah Most Glorious has ordered the believers, in the Koran, to obey Him and His Messenger, so too He has ordered them to obey those of authority (ulu al-amr) among them, saying,

"O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the Prophet and those of authority among you" (koran 4:59).

such that when those of authority in legal expertise, the Mujtahids, agree upon a ruling, it is obligatory in the very words of the Koran to follow them and carry out their judgement.

And Allah threatens those who oppose the Messenger and follow other than the believers' way, saying,

"Whoever contraverts the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the believers' way, We shall give him over to what he has turned to and roast him in hell, and how evil an outcome" (Koran 4:115).

b7.4: Hadith Evidence

A second evidentiary aspect is that a ruling agreed upon by all the mujtahids in the Islamic Community (Umma) is in fact the ruling of the Community, represented by its mujtahids, and there are many hadiths that have come from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), as well as quotes from the Companions, which indicate that the Community is divinely protected from error, including his saying (Allah bless him and give him peace) :

-1- "My Community shall not agree on an error."

-2- "Allah is not wont to make my Community concur on misguidance."

-3- "That which the Muslims consider good, Allah considers good." (`Ilm usul al-fiqh (y71), 45-47)

c2.5 The unlawful (haram) is what the lawgiver strictly forbids…
(3) and unbelief (Kufr), sins which put one beyond the pale of Islam (as discussed at o8.7) necessitate the Testification of faith (shahada) to reenter it…

ACTS THAT ENTAIL LEAVING ISLAM

o8.7
(7) to deny any verse of the Koran or anything which by scholarly consensus belongs to it, or to add a verse to that does not belong to it;

(Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law. Pgs 15-35 & pgs 596-598)
http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Trave.../dp/0915957728


Islam is to the Kafir religions what Nazism and Communism was to the Jews.

IMO, Islam is the guiding ideology behind Islamic terrorism and until we realize that the enemy is not simply Al Qaeda or the Taliban, and that it is the ideology of Islam itself, we will only continue to play the never ending game of “whack a mole”

I’m crossing my fingers for the reformers, but I’m not holding my breath…