SFSC pre-shoot

longrange1947 · 02-13-2008, 17:02

Guys - Make sure that the students coming to our school can shoot. We have a very simple pre-shoot that must be passed to get in. It is simply three of five, five round groups within 1.25 inches, outside to outside at 25 meters. We have new M4s with BUIS s for this shoot and we test the weapons first to insure it can be done and not the weapon screwing up.

Don't get the boot because you can't group. You would be surprised at the number that have lost basic marksmanship skills.

Justinmd · 02-13-2008, 20:42

What is SFSC exactly? Is that what used to be SOTIC? I heard some things like that were going on over there.
Justin

longrange1947 · 02-14-2008, 05:22

Special Operations Target Interdiction Course (SOTIC) became the Special Forces Sniper Course (SFSC) last year by order of the General.

AxeMan · 02-14-2008, 06:11

LR1947,
Thanks for the posting. One guy on my team failed the initial shoot last year. He didn't know anything about it until three days prior. I am sending a guy this year and we have a range on our compound so he can work on this while we are deployed. A couple of questions for you:
Are the BUIS the issue top rail, or an aftermarket flip-up sight?
Are they shooting prone?
Supported or unsupported?
Time standard for the 5 shots?
Regular green tip 5.56?

Any part of this you can reveal would be great. I will get this guy on the range and get him prepared.

**Razor** · 02-14-2008, 21:12

If it makes anyone feel any better, to earn the Rifle Shooting merit badge, a Boy Scout has to shoot five groups of five rounds each within a 1.125" circle at 50 feet with a .22 rifle.

longrange1947 · 02-15-2008, 07:00

Axeman - The position is prone supported on a sandbag and the BUIS is the issue ones we use at SFAR. The time limit eludes me right now. It is plenty of time to fire the rounds. Keep track of where you fire the rounds as we have guys the shoot four and six sometimes as they forget what they are doing (attention to detail). The rounds do not have to be on the aim point only a group, we do not care where that group is located. We use the "zero target silhouette" as the aim point. Ammunition is green tip but will use 77gr when we have it.

Main thing is that the shooter has the basic marksmanship ability to group his weapon.

Razor - That reinforces what we are saying, to shoot expert, you must be able to shoot a tight group. They all have paperwork claiming expert, we are just having them "show us".

kgoerz · 05-19-2008, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by longrange1947

Special Operations Target Interdiction Course (SOTIC) became the Special Forces Sniper Course (SFSC) last year by order of the General.

Thats a travesty

longrange1947 · 05-19-2008, 17:22

Should have heard me, Dragbag can attest to my comments on the "change". Not really very polite.

Psywar1-0 · 05-19-2008, 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by longrange1947

Should have heard me, Dragbag can attest to my comments on the "change". Not really very polite.

But your soon to have a new general right? So it can change back......

frostfire · 11-05-2009, 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by longrange1947

Guys - Make sure that the students coming to our school can shoot. We have a very simple pre-shoot that must be passed to get in. It is simply three of five, five round groups within 1.25 inches, outside to outside at 25 meters. We have new M4s with BUIS s for this shoot and we test the weapons first to insure it can be done and not the weapon screwing up.

Don't get the boot because you can't group. You would be surprised at the number that have lost basic marksmanship skills.

Master Rick,

I thought of using PM, but figured that anyone who'd like to augment their marksmanship or coaching skills can benefit as well.

When you say lost, do you mean forget or just ingrain bad habits?

I'd presume that without routine dry fire & grouping, doing reflex fire, machine guns, high caliber firearms, CQB, usw. at close to moderate distance can mask and ingrain bad habits (bucking, flinching, jerking, usw.). Multiplied over time and thousands of rounds, these habits then become semi permanent.

One of the struggle I had in coaching was trying to come from the students perspective. When the firearm, positions (esp. prone supported), and the shooter's understanding of the terminology & instructions were good to go, what more could/should be done other than just following the two basic fundamentals as Master Gene Econ had always emphasized. Align sights, squeeze straight. FWIW, if I may toot my own horn, the groups below were my 4th and 5th group from starting out (mk262, Rock River Match, 20rds, 100yds, ~5mph wind, prone unsupported). Considering what the rifle-ammo was capable of, they're still lousy groups) I would never consider myself good/prodigious, etc. Yes, thousands of dry fire and I read & conceptualized a lot, but I merely followed the basic instructions. I'd even dare to say that it has got to be easy and if I can do it, anyone can. One of my joy (ego aside) was to have a student outshoot me. When I couldn't even bring them to my level, I must confess it was rather frustrating although I kept it in the back of my head (just like in ER, I learned the folks can pick up emotional cue and let it affect them)

Thank you for the education.

longrange1947 · 11-05-2009, 20:50

Frostfire - Had lunch with Gene Econ today and have known him since he was a very young 2d Lt. We talked about all sorts of shooting and fun stuff.

I say lost because many shooters have lost their skills just as you described. The bad habits are ingrained and they can be hard to break. We give a class on marksmanship prior to the shoot in. We do it as a refresher and to try and get the guys heads in the game.

The guys have been shooting on big targets that they only care about a hit not where they hit. We have to bring them to the point of where they care. If they really want to be in the course, they will find a way to practice and get help to shoot the required accuracy to get in. Unfortunately, too many units fill the slot with a shout down the hall and zero prep is made or allowed.

The SGMs then get the ass because the guys come back and they want us to make an exception to let their guys in. My answer to them is; "Well hell SGM, if you had done your job and the Team Daddy had done his then your man would be in the course, do not expect us to clean up your screw up". We will still get calls with SGMs incensed over the fact that we kicked them out on day one even though the requirements are well known. I rank it with the guys showing up without the required paperwork. Again, Team Daddy not doing his job and the training NCO not doing his job, and PAC not doing the job and last but definitely not least, the guy not doing his job.

Crap guys, research what is required, make a check list, check it at least twice, call the school, but if you show up without the paperwork, you will not even get a chance to shoot in.

Frostfire, sorry, answered your question and then went on a rant.

**18C4V** · 11-05-2009, 23:19

LR,
With the amount of guys who fail the pre-shoot, what's the procedure for the guys who show up as a walk on? Does the priority go to the guys who are stationed at Bragg?

longrange1947 · 11-05-2009, 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by 18C4V

LR,
With the amount of guys who fail the pre-shoot, what's the procedure for the guys who show up as a walk on? Does the priority go to the guys who are stationed at Bragg?

No, we go straightg down the list that comes in from USASFC and then down the list of walk ons. We take the top 32 shooters period. Once all the hard slotted guys have either passed or failed, we then start on the others.

**18C4V** · 11-05-2009, 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by longrange1947

No, we go straightg down the list that comes in from USASFC and then down the list of walk ons. We take the top 32 shooters period. Once all the hard slotted guys have either passed or failed, we then start on the others.

How does one get on the USASFC list (do you mean ATRRS? If so then I understand this part) and on the walk on list?

frostfire · 11-06-2009, 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by longrange1947

Frostfire - Had lunch with Gene Econ today and have known him since he was a very young 2d Lt. We talked about all sorts of shooting and fun stuff.

Master Rick,

glad to hear. If I ever cross your AO or you and Major Econ cross mine, the promise/offer of all-you-can-drink-in-1-hr hefeweizen or other Deutsches Bier still stands