Automatic Assault Rifle Schools

[Team Sergeant]

Here's a question for all:

Where in the United States does anyone teach/instruct the use of "fully" automatic fire for an assault rifle or submachine gun to non-military personnel (Fed State Local LEO's)?

Has anyone out there been to a school and received a diploma in the use of "Fully Automatic Fire"????

(US military excluded)


Team Sergeant

[azmg]

TS-

I have taken a class from Tactical Response (out of Camden, TN). Class and Diploma listed as "Tactical Sub-Machine Gun". If I recall it was a two day class and utilized suppressed M-4 platform weaponry supplied by a vendor local to you (I took the class here in Tucson).

[Endorphin Rush]

Been to the NRA's Select-fire school. The course did not deal with auto fire only, but did require the use of fully auto weapons. One of the qualifying standards was to be able to demonstrate placing one 28 round magazine onto an 8 1/2 x 11 inch target at 10 meters.

If this is relevant to what you seek, I'll be happy to provide any info that I can.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Endorphin Rush

Been to the NRA's Select-fire school. The course did not deal with auto fire only, but did require the use of fully auto weapons. One of the qualifying standards was to be able to demonstrate placing one 28 round magazine onto an 8 1/2 x 11 inch target at 10 meters.

If this is relevant to what you seek, I'll be happy to provide any info that I can.

This is exactly what I was looking for....


(Sorry azmg, a tactical shooting taught by many that have never been in harms way doesn't cut it. Hope you enjoyed the course.)

NRA Select-Fire Instructor

This school is designed for the select-fire firearm with full-automatic capability and applies to both submachine guns and rifles. Classroom presentations cover how to teach basic fundamentals of marksmanship, handling, zeroing, practical range drill development, and liability issues. Range work covers marksmanship, operating techniques, use of cover, various firing positions, pivots and turns, use of the safety circle concept, reloading under stress, firing on the move, multiple threats, decision-making, reduced light threat identification and firing, semi-automatic, burst and automatic firing trigger control, and handgun transition techniques. Students design a tactical course of fire and are responsible for developing a lesson plan and running fellow students through their course at the end of the week. In addition to the above mentioned equipment, the following are ALSO necessary for this school:


Duty-type, law enforcement select-fire rifle or submachine gun capable of being fired single shot and full-auto, equipped with a sling.
At least three magazines with a capacity of 20 rounds or more.
1,500 rounds of duty or training rifle ammunition.
100 rounds of duty or training handgun ammunition.



I'm going to send a few emails to the NRA LEO training staff and ask some hard questions.......

TS

[Warrior-Mentor]

Why does anyone not Military need this?

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Warrior-Mentor

Why does anyone not Military or LEO need this?

The US military (conventional) does not employ automatic assault weapons fire (3 shot burst only). It's just not effective and definitely not discrimatory.

My question is what situations does civilian Law enforcement think its necessary to employ full automatic fire?

[jbour13]

I have a friend that does a class in the Northern Va area. His is oriented towards the consumer that would otherwise never get a chance to rock'n'roll full auto. He's very thorough and safe. His classroom time is about 10 times longer than the range portion.

[CoLawman]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

The US military (conventional) does not employ automatic assault weapons fire (3 shot burst only). It's just not effective and definitely not discrimatory.

My question is what situations does civilian Law enforcement think its necessary to employ full automatic fire?

TS, I do not believe that law enforcement is contrary to the military. I know of no qualification course where point and spray is used.

I do recall the LA shootout with the bank robbers, where the SWAT team arrived in a car and jumped out using this method as suppressive fire to get the badguy to stop his point and spray method. It worked and was captured forever on video.

[incommin]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

The US military (conventional) does not employ automatic assault weapons fire (3 shot burst only). It's just not effective and definitely not discrimatory.

My question is what situations does civilian Law enforcement think its necessary to employ full automatic fire?

I do not think there is one.

The Army teaches machine gun crews to maximise the use of their gun. It teaches 11B's and others to use aimed fire. They learn to "spray fire" on their own when the time comes.

The Army Brass fought going from single shot arms to bolt actions and then from bolt actions to semi autos because of the fear that soldiers whould no longer aim their weapons.

Full auto is for clearing trenches and rooms, suppressing fire, terrain denial, and recon by fire where you do not have to worry with collaterial damage.

None of that fits into LE work. LE always has to worry about collaterial damage!

TS, I don't think I have written anything you didn't all ready know. So I am curious about why you asked the question.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

My question is what situations does civilian Law enforcement think its necessary to employ full automatic fire?

Only in a special teams capacity. Looking at this we have to consider the overall weapons training program. For us we run weapons on safe until you are on target and have decided to shoot. With this in mind some weapons systems are not conducive to this, I.E. the MP5 or the M16/ M4. To instantly go from “safe” to “full auto” is not always possible due to the design of the selector switch. For gun fighting what this equates to is I can put five rounds into a threat from “safe” to “semi” faster than I can from “safe” to “full auto” due to the awkwardness of the selector manipulation. That said the question remains, “is it necessary to employ full automatic fire”? My answer is yes. For anything outside of CBQ the ability to control the weapon is full auto is an issue. The greater the engagement distances the less likely your hit probability with full auto. But, at close distance you need to hit faster than the bad guy is hitting you. At room clearing distance he will most likely hit you. So, while you feel chunks of meat being blown out of your ass and you see his shirt “poofing” with each shot you put into him yet he is not dropping you will have what alcoholics refer to as “a moment of clarity”. You can’t make that fucking gun shoot fast enough!

From someone who is talking to you today because a couple of years ago he put an asshole down with full auto I say, yes it’s necessary.

[CoLawman]

Originally Posted by Warrior-Mentor

Why does anyone not Military need this?

I know of several instances where Law Enforcement agencies were engaged in fights with individuals also using fully automatic weapons. I can speak personally of two incidents.

The need has always been there and is becoming more prevalent with the use of fully automatic weapons by gangsters. It is well documented that the military has been infiltrated by gang members and they are coming out with training that makes them formidable opponents to law enforcement. A recent shooting in California, involving a gang member with military training, resulted in the death of the officer. The gangster was armed with a fully automatic weapon and the officers, initially, were armed with their handguns.

Fully automatic weapons have been part of LE arsenal since the Thompson machine gun. The MP5 was a popular choice for SWAT during the 80's and is still quite prevalent in LE.

The ATF agents on this site can speak to the percentage of gangsters with fully automatic weapons. I can only speak of my community, and the weapon of choice is the sawed off shotgun, but the badguys arsenals include fully automatic weapons.

Our officers now have the choice of carrying a shotgun or an AR15 (with training and quals.) This is the norm. Automatic weapons are generally in the hands of SWAT.

TS I will research what training they receive. When I was SWAT it was through the FBI and LAPD. At that time we trained with short bursts. Have no clue on what is being taught and by whom the last 10 years. Will get back to you on it though.

[Bill Harsey]

Originally Posted by Warrior-Mentor

Why does anyone not Military need this?

liberal.

[MtnGoat]

Originally Posted by Bill Harsey

liberal.

LOL