New duty Pistol

[kgoerz]

We have had nothing but problems with our SIG229 Pistols. This is not a bash Sig thread. I have had a P220 for a few years and it has never failed me.
Even after we sent them back to get refurbished we are still encountering broken extractors and take down pins. We are now looking at changing over. It takes more then just going out and buying new ones. More then likely we will have to stay with .40 Cal.

What were looking at.
1. Springfield XD
2. Glock 22
3. HK USP
4. There is also talk about the new Smith and Wesson. Don't even know what its called.
We know the Glock works. What I am looking for is test data on the Springfield XD. Or the HK. I saw all the positive feedback on here. But I will need actual Data to sell either the XD or HK over the Glock. Or the name of an Agency/Unit that has been using these.

[Peregrino]

KG - Good luck with the XD. I wish I had the test data to support your quest. Can you contact Springfield or are there conflict issues?

FWIW, If you can get it approved, you'll be very pleased. The XDm in .40 is the best "tactical tupperware" I've ever played with. Glocks aren't even in the same game. Everybody I've recommended one to has been happy with the choice. I've had my XDs long enough that I'm ready to start "tweaking", something that's not really needed with the XDm. I'm putting Springer Precision trigger kits I just got delivered from Brownells in this weekend. Night sights are next.

#4 - You're probably referring to the S&W M&P. It's also gaining a decent reputation (recommended by a respected friend) but I have no personal experience.

[tom kelly]

First, Forget about Glock's in .40 cal. THEY DO NOT HAVE A FULLY SUPPORTED CHAMBER, so you have to be very careful of the ammunition you fire from it. Second The Phila. Police Dept. uses Glocks in 9mm but have recently given permission to all officers to upgrade to .40 cal. or .45 GAP at their own expense. The only reason the city uses Glocks is PRICE! I have two .40 cal. pistols an XDM Springfield and a Les Baer Custom HC .40 That has a capacity of 18 + 1 However, it is very expensive with the add on Tritium night sights & the PA. sales tax (7%) the cost is @ $ 3700. Also it is very tempermental as to ammo selection that it will run without a stopage. After trying 5 different brands of ammo the gun would fire 3 rounds and not go into full battery on the 4th round. The slide and barrel are on the way back to LBC in LeClaire, Iowa for what Les Baer thinks is a further reaming of the Kart 5 inch 4350 steel chrome molly barrel. This barrel does have a fully supported chamber. The chamber pressures of the .40 cal S&W run between 32,000 and 35,000 psi so having a fully supported barrel is an extra margin of safety. The XDM Springfield is a good solid reliable pistol and the cost is very reasonable $599 and it comes with extra gear. The capacity of the .40 is 16 + 1. The gun shoots 2.5 to 3.0 inch groups at 25 yds. Digests all types of ammo without a stoppage so far, I have @ 1500 rounds thru it to date. Springfield offers a custom carry package rounded edges, tritium night sights and a 4.5 lb trigger for $260. Regard's, tom kelly

[Razor]

KG, have you heard if the FAMs are running into the same problems you guys are having with the SIGs?

[D9 (RIP)]

I have an XD 40.

7 years, 5000+ rounds and only a handful of failure to feeds (maybe 3) where the slide needed a tap.

I recommend this pistol. Good ergonomics. Combat oriented and simple.

[trent]

I love the USP. I also have a Sig and never had any problems with it. Is it bad parts due to lowest bidder or what?

[kgoerz]

Originally Posted by Razor

KG, have you heard if the FAMs are running into the same problems you guys are having with the SIGs?

Not that I heard of.

This is all a big help. Just what I am looking for. Also, thanks for the PM'S everyone.

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

I have come to rely on Ruger for no problem shooting.
I have a Walther P99 (40), A Beretta 92 (9mm), Colt 1911, Springfield XD (40), Ruger Blackhawk (44mag), mark 1 (22), and a P97DC (45).

Absolutely love the Ruger's dependability, but I'm not a Pistolaro.
Blitzzz

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Razor

KG, have you heard if the FAMs are running into the same problems you guys are having with the SIGs?

Last I heard, the FAMs had the 229s, but in .357 SIG rather than .40.

TR

[XJWoody]

That "new" S&W may be their M&P...

My wife works for NCDOC, and they traded in their old .38 revolvers for these -in .40S&W- some time ago. She isn't the most qualified cat on the firing line, <Edit: certainly, I am not either.> but she said it was easy to shoot & hit with... She keeps jawboning about trading in her personal GP100 .357 3" for one, either a compact or duty-size, but hasn't taken the logical next step... actually doing it.

FWIW Last Friday I got stuck in the grocery line with a gent wearing a "DOC Instructor" polo shirt. I asked him what he thought, and he spoke favorably... offered that he bought one for himself (duty-size) & was satisfied.

One caveat - grain of salt included... NCDOC was dangled a carrot by S&W: "Free" training ammunition for a year if they got the M&Ps. I normally am not a fan of lowest-bidder type arrangements, but that seems to be the nature of the beast when dealing with (many) governmental agencies.

[kawika]

I'd say the M&P is the best polymer framed pistol in its price range now. It's trigger needs work for competition type use, but for duty use its fine as is. I recommend it to everyone who asks me what type of pistol they should buy for personal use. They have a good LE discount, should be able to get them for around low 400's.

It's striker fired and in the 9/40 doesn't have a thumb safety, one can be had on the 45 version though. I have one of the 45's and the trigger pull was pretty long. Don't remember what I gauged it as but it was around 8-10 I beileve.

The thing that sets it apart for me at least its its bore axis. It is extremely quick on follow up shots. The bore is pretty much in line with your hand. As such, muzzle flip is drastically reduced compared to the H&K or SIG. I also have an H&K fullsize 40 and with the jetfunnel mag system its nice as it has a round count of 16. The new XDm however also has the same round count and its in a newer designed weapon so obviously theres some nice traits to be had.

The H&K is an excellent design and 100% reliable. I'm at 6000+ rounds with mine and no problems whatsoever. However of the guns you mentioned it is the oldest. That's not necessarily bad obviously but in the realm of polymer framed pistols, theres been significant advances in the past couple years. Magazine technology and the realization of a correct bore axis is one of them.

If it was me and I had to chose in a LE setting what my department was going to I'd without a doubt choose the M&P. At a $400 price point it shouldn't be hard to convince the bean crunchers either. It don't know what your department specifics are for what the pistol has to have from a legal standpoint. It is DAO, and has an internal locking saftey-can't fire if theres not a magazine in the chamber. If you don't require this, it is very easy to take off. I personally find the safety being only on the trigger (ala glock dao type firing systems) to be a huge plus. One less failure point. Ergonmics are great and there is 3 different sized backstraps.

I'd say either would be great for LE use. Do you have a price point you have to meet? And do you need the additional external safteys that the XD provides. Either is a winner. I just prefer the shorter reset and bore axis of the M&P. The trigger is worse in the beginning while it is still gritty. Either smooth it out yourself(extremely easy for you or your armorer to do as it involves simply buffing the parts prematurely) or just shoot around 500-1000 rounds and the triggers are pretty much the same.

[kgoerz]

Originally Posted by kawika

I'd say the M&P is the best polymer framed pistol in its price range now. It's trigger needs work for competition type use, but for duty use its fine as is. I recommend it to everyone who asks me what type of pistol they should buy for personal use. They have a good LE discount, should be able to get them for around low 400's.

It's striker fired and in the 9/40 doesn't have a thumb safety, one can be had on the 45 version though. I have one of the 45's and the trigger pull was pretty long. Don't remember what I gauged it as but it was around 8-10 I beileve.

The thing that sets it apart for me at least its its bore axis. It is extremely quick on follow up shots. The bore is pretty much in line with your hand. As such, muzzle flip is drastically reduced compared to the H&K or SIG. I also have an H&K fullsize 40 and with the jetfunnel mag system its nice as it has a round count of 16. The new XDm however also has the same round count and its in a newer designed weapon so obviously theres some nice traits to be had.

The H&K is an excellent design and 100% reliable. I'm at 6000+ rounds with mine and no problems whatsoever. However of the guns you mentioned it is the oldest. That's not necessarily bad obviously but in the realm of polymer framed pistols, theres been significant advances in the past couple years. Magazine technology and the realization of a correct bore axis is one of them.

If it was me and I had to chose in a LE setting what my department was going to I'd without a doubt choose the M&P. At a $400 price point it shouldn't be hard to convince the bean crunchers either. It don't know what your department specifics are for what the pistol has to have from a legal standpoint. It is DAO, and has an internal locking saftey-can't fire if theres not a magazine in the chamber. If you don't require this, it is very easy to take off. I personally find the safety being only on the trigger (ala glock dao type firing systems) to be a huge plus. One less failure point. Ergonmics are great and there is 3 different sized backstraps.

I'd say either would be great for LE use. Do you have a price point you have to meet? And do you need the additional external safteys that the XD provides. Either is a winner. I just prefer the shorter reset and bore axis of the M&P. The trigger is worse in the beginning while it is still gritty. Either smooth it out yourself(extremely easy for you or your armorer to do as it involves simply buffing the parts prematurely) or just shoot around 500-1000 rounds and the triggers are pretty much the same.

No need for an external Safety. Don't want one. We have ample funds but no one is going to approve more then $800 for purchasing new Pistols. We may be slick, but not that slick
They are sending us an M&P to test shoot. It will probably be between the Glock22, M&P and XD. Of course we will test fire and get everyones opinions all these Pistols.
We received the last batch of Sigs that we sent off a few weeks ago to be refurbished. Like last time, one of the Hand Grips were missing screws. For the life of me I don't know whats going on with Sig.

[sleepyhead4]

I just bought an HK P2000sk and so far, that's the best pistol I've ever used. They run about $750 to $800 civilian with different versions (SA/DA or LEM).

What I like about the pistol is that it is very ergonomic, better than the XD and feels really solid in my hand. It also shoots pretty damn well. Lastly, it's smaller than the standard HK USP so it's easier grip for my girly hands.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Last I heard, the FAMs had the 229s, but in .357 SIG rather than .40.

That's my impression as well. Since I haven't heard much about the 226 in 40/357SIG having similar extractor problems, I wonder if the extra mass afforded by the longer slide slows down the cycle enough to avoid extractor damage when firing 40?

[kgoerz]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Last I heard, the FAMs had the 229s, but in .357 SIG rather than .40.

TR

Yes, the FAM'S that attended a Shooting Course with us recently. Carried that very same gun. Its loud and bright. But who cares. Once they draw it and shoot it on a plane there is no reason to be timid